Does gear oil go bad?

69fastback

PickleRick said:h

Dude, you can run whatever you want.  


Back in the 70s and 80s 2 cycle mac, poulan and homelite saws all ran 16:1 and you mixed 30wt motor oil with the gas.  Today's 2 cycle engines run much hotter and instead of 6000 max rpms they can run 10,000 or more.  How well would your truck run at 10,000 rpms non stop for 24 hrs straight?  Well a 179 dollar ms170 is rated to do that for about 125 non stop hours.  

Things change @69fastback

Across the board, all newer (past 3 to 5 years and newer) major brand 2 cycle equipment will last longer if you run synthetic or synthetic blend oils rather than dino oil.  The biggest killer of a 2 stroke air cooled engine is heat.  

Calling echo/shindaiwa junk because you need proper rated oil is a very ignorant statement.  Our 7.3 power strokes are not junk because they require specially rated oils to prevent gumming of the injectors.  My tdi isn't junk because conventional oils will lead to round lobes on the cam shaft (PD engine) synthetic only on a PD engine and some will say only vw rated at that but i like my t5 just fine.


Im sure you are just trying to get a rise out of me but your statement is extremely misleading and could lead someene who reads to ruin a piece of equipment or sway them away from a smarter purchase choice.

Your truck is liquid cooled and your rpms dont turn what todays air cooled 2 cycles turn.  You're trying to compare apples to oranges.  They are both internal combustion engines, that's about where the similarities stop.


I don't know the egts of a 2 cycle.  I do know the carnage caused by using improper mixing oil.  

My truck has nothing to do with a 2 stroke. Do you know what the max RPM of my sons KX85 is?  10.500 RPMs, and no synthetics needed, and that’s in modern times,  not 40 years ago. I agree, the biggest killer of a 2 stroke is heat, NOT DINO OIL. 

And mixing oil has nothing to do with what we are talking about. 

If the difference between blowing up, and not, is synthetic vs Dino, it’s junk, especially if we are talking about 6 hours. JUNK

My stihl FS90 seems to run fine on my maxima 927 for 15 years now. 

If you want to run synthetic, great. It’s good stuff, but don’t go all liberal media and tell people they will grenade their motors because of conventional oil. 

Michael T

As always forum members will listen to opinion and make the choice that fits for them. I do not believe I ever implied that running low cost oil formulations v.s. more expensive semi or full synthetics would cause an engine to "blow-up" or result in "total failure". My education, reading of reports, from what I consider credible sources and experience have lead me to the conclusion that semi and full synthetics are dramatically better in protecting automotive and particularly marine engines that are used and maintained normally by greatly lengthening their longevity, dramatically reducing wear and  offering amazing protection from temperature flares. I remember the old Fram filter add  - you can pay me now or a whole lot later. That is the way I view synthetic oils. In this case I am relating  my comments to marine engines and of course, every owner has a choice as to the product they want......the nice thing about a democracy. :-)

BTW.....FWIW.....As I had done many times in the past I spent a lot of time talking with Mercruiser U.S.A. Factory and our Provincial Mercruiser representative when I purchased our new 2011 EC 310 with twin 350 magnums and later when I purchased our 2014 EC 360 with twin 502s.

I spent considerable money on my last two Rinker Cruiser purchases and considerable money "breaking them in" done.....right by the book. It cost me $1,000.00 in gas per boat to cruise up and down a big local lake at exactly the RPM bands v.s. hours recommended by Mercruiser factory. I had a log and it was exactly done right. I used Mercruiser synthetic oil and Mercruiser High Efficiency Oil Filters recommended for synthetic oil. Did that cost a bit more? Yes it did.

So why? Simple. I buy quality and treat it right for the long term. Marine engines work hard particularly with on/off loads. I wanted the best for my expensive and beloved purchases.

But even more important. I never buy anything (other maybe than toilet paper - that may be a joke in these times) that I don't think about resale. What would I do at resale time? My EC 310 is now with an awesome young family while the EC 360 is with a fantastic couple who I got to know well. The only way I could sell such expensive items and be able to look them in the eye and tell them they had NOTHING to fear about their purchase was to have done right in the first place.

Those two cruisers are a little older now but I bet an in depth analysis of the engine/drives would show they were in pristine condition. I spent a little more money for the insurance of longevity and the ability to assure future owners that they were safe. I suppose you could ask these two owners how they feel about my maintenance and oil and filter choices.

Some bargains are too expensive (in the end) to consider. 

Go Rinker. Go Mercruiser. Consider synthetic!

69fastback

Michael T said:

As always forum members will listen to opinion and make the choice that fits for them. I do not believe I ever implied that running low cost oil formulations v.s. more expensive semi or full synthetics would cause an engine to "blow-up" or result in "total failure". My education, reading of reports, from what I consider credible sources and experience have lead me to the conclusion that semi and full synthetics are dramatically better in protecting automotive and particularly marine engines that are used and maintained normally by greatly lengthening their longevity, dramatically reducing wear and  offering amazing protection from temperature flares. I remember the old Fram filter add  - you can pay me now or a whole lot later. That is the way I view synthetic oils. In this case I am relating  my comments to marine engines and of course, every owner has a choice as to the product they want......the nice thing about a democracy. :-)

BTW.....FWIW.....As I had done many times in the past I spent a lot of time talking with Mercruiser U.S.A. Factory and our Provincial Mercruiser representative when I purchased our new 2011 EC 310 with twin 350 magnums and later when I purchased our 2014 EC 360 with twin 502s.

I spent considerable money on my last two Rinker Cruiser purchases and considerable money "breaking them in" done.....right by the book. It cost me $1,000.00 in gas per boat to cruise up and down a big local lake at exactly the RPM bands v.s. hours recommended by Mercruiser factory. I had a log and it was exactly done right. I used Mercruiser synthetic oil and Mercruiser High Efficiency Oil Filters recommended for synthetic oil. Did that cost a bit more? Yes it did.

So why? Simple. I buy quality and treat it right for the long term. Marine engines work hard particularly with on/off loads. I wanted the best for my expensive and beloved purchases.

But even more important. I never buy anything (other maybe than toilet paper - that may be a joke in these times) that I don't think about resale. What would I do at resale time? My EC 310 is now with an awesome young family while the EC 360 is with a fantastic couple who I got to know well. The only way I could sell such expensive items and be able to look them in the eye and tell them they had NOTHING to fear about their purchase was to have done right in the first place.

Those two cruisers are a little older now but I bet an in depth analysis of the engine/drives would show they were in pristine condition. I spent a little more money for the insurance of longevity and the ability to assure future owners that they were safe. I suppose you could ask these two owners how they feel about my maintenance and oil and filter choices.

Some bargains are too expensive (in the end) to consider. 

Go Rinker. Go Mercruiser. Consider synthetic!

Again, a little confused with your first statement, as I never said anything direct to you about engines blowing up. 

That’s great that you chose to do that with your boat, and there’s nothing wrong with that and I never said there was. Although, with modern machining and materials, “break in” is complete after 2 heat cycles. I always consider resale as well, which is why my boat has a complete maintenance log and I often get asked if my 2003 is brand new.  Last year the park ranger went to do a zebra mussel inspection and then passed me by because he said “new boats like this one are clean.” 

Run synthetics, and keep that warm fuzzy feeling it gives you. It’s a great choice, but since I have to re state my point every time I post, since it keeps getting twisted and skewed, Dino oils are just fine too, as long as you keep it changed and keep up on maintenence. There will be no added wear, and I say that with the experience of tearing down a lot
of engines. 

PickleRick

69fastback said:

PickleRick said:h

Dude, you can run whatever you want.  


Back in the 70s and 80s 2 cycle mac, poulan and homelite saws all ran 16:1 and you mixed 30wt motor oil with the gas.  Today's 2 cycle engines run much hotter and instead of 6000 max rpms they can run 10,000 or more.  How well would your truck run at 10,000 rpms non stop for 24 hrs straight?  Well a 179 dollar ms170 is rated to do that for about 125 non stop hours.  

Things change @69fastback

Across the board, all newer (past 3 to 5 years and newer) major brand 2 cycle equipment will last longer if you run synthetic or synthetic blend oils rather than dino oil.  The biggest killer of a 2 stroke air cooled engine is heat.  

Calling echo/shindaiwa junk because you need proper rated oil is a very ignorant statement.  Our 7.3 power strokes are not junk because they require specially rated oils to prevent gumming of the injectors.  My tdi isn't junk because conventional oils will lead to round lobes on the cam shaft (PD engine) synthetic only on a PD engine and some will say only vw rated at that but i like my t5 just fine.


Im sure you are just trying to get a rise out of me but your statement is extremely misleading and could lead someene who reads to ruin a piece of equipment or sway them away from a smarter purchase choice.

Your truck is liquid cooled and your rpms dont turn what todays air cooled 2 cycles turn.  You're trying to compare apples to oranges.  They are both internal combustion engines, that's about where the similarities stop.


I don't know the egts of a 2 cycle.  I do know the carnage caused by using improper mixing oil.  

My truck has nothing to do with a 2 stroke. Do you know what the max RPM of my sons KX85 is?  10.500 RPMs, and no synthetics needed, and that’s in modern times,  not 40 years ago. I agree, the biggest killer of a 2 stroke is heat, NOT DINO OIL. 

And mixing oil has nothing to do with what we are talking about. 

If the difference between blowing up, and not, is synthetic vs Dino, it’s junk, especially if we are talking about 6 hours. JUNK

My stihl FS90 seems to run fine on my maxima 927 for 15 years now. 

If you want to run synthetic, great. It’s good stuff, but don’t go all liberal media and tell people they will grenade their motors because of conventional oil. 

Your fs90 was released in about 2004 and replaced about 2 to 3 years ago with the fs91.  Secondly your fs90 not a 2 stroke.  Your fs90 is called a 4 mix.  You have 2 valves, 2 push rods, 2 solid lifters, a plastic cam, 2 rocker arms.  There is even a compression release on the cam.  The engine is designed to allow enough oil and fuel mix to pass by the rings and allow a pool of fuel mix to sit the bottom end.

While dino works perfectly fine in those it didn't always work out so well.  The first couple years of production saw the 4 mix engines (fs90, fs110, br500, br600 etc) plagued with dropped valves.  Stihl had a bandaid fix for that, full synthetic hp oil.  The valves would carbon up and stick in valve guide. This caused the rocker arm to push the entire valve/valve guide into the piston.

I saw a few that just had carbon around the lip of the valve and pit the valve seat.  This was a total loss when the valve seat was pitted on the head.  

I saw lots of broken crank case pans from piston valve contact forcing the crank out the bottom end.

By 2010 the engine was redesigned and those issues went away.

Brand new stihl saws WILL brurn up if you let the chain get dull and you use the tree spikes as a dull chain over ride. You have a very very thin margin of error in new 2 stroke equipment thanks to the EPA.  Most newer commercial stihl saws are all m tronic, meaning the carb is self adjusting on the fly via a computer

This wasnt an issue in older, richer running chainsaws.  I've seen it in saws from a 211 all the way up to the 261/391, i have not seen it happen in the 362 and bigger saws.

The echo/shindaiwa 491/500/600 saws are about the last of the big saws you can increase the compression on, mod the mufflers and physically open up and tune the carb.

But if you run any Stihl oil in them, my hand on the Bible, you must run stihl hp full synthetic oil as the orange soy based will kill that motor quickly.  Modded or not.

Anyting else you want to add @69fastback ?

PickleRick

Also did you really just call me a liberal?  


Are you on drugs?  

69fastback

Yes I’m aware that the FS90 is a “ 4 stroke”, but it still gets lumped in with the oil burners. Again, if the difference between something blowing up is Synthetic Vs Dino, I don’t want it. 

FWIW, my chainsaw and blower also get Maxima 927. I’m just not interested in having different oil for the 5 two strokes in my garage. 

Drugs? Nah. Even if I wanted to, I couldn’t, because of random testing at work. They tend to frown on that with my job. 

Anyways, run synthetics. I don’t know why it turned into such a thing just because I said you’re not doing your engine any disservice with Dino oil, and maintenece is more important than what you put in. It’s not a knock on synthetics. It’s a knock on people who don’t maintain their equipment and think synthetics will save them 👍

PickleRick

I'm not going to pretend i know about landing procedures on a plane

Stop pretending you know about how 2 cycle oil demand/ratings have changed in the past 5 years.  You are not up to speed on any of the current equipment nor do you deal with the mass of warranty calls/repairs i get from customers who bought equipment from home depot, lowes, Wal-Mart, online purchases or tractor supply and the sales staff didn't inform them of what is required.    

The difference in a 6 pack of 1 gallon mix stihl orange vs the silver synthetic is about 3 bucks.  

Dealers make about an extra dollar on the sale.  






Extremely powerful commercial 4 mix blower by shindaiwa.  Customer purchased it at a competitor.  He is a commercial land scaper part time, been doing this over 15 years.  He is a full time fire fighter. Owns all commercial equipment including some fs90 trimmers and a br600.  He fills up his fuel tank and runs it. He has 2 of these.  Within 10 hours of estimated run time on stihl soy based conventional oil this is what his cam lobe looks like, on both engines.  The oil doesn't hold up to the heat and friction on the top end. The lack of lubrication causes the valve stem to over heat/expand and starts to stick.  This added tension eats the cam lobe before snapping off the rocker arm cap.

Had their sales staff told him to spend 3 more dollars on fuel mix this wouldnt be here. Shindaiwa sent him a brand new blower because of the sales staff not knowing any better.  My competitor lost a customer and i picked up a new one. I've since sold him 2 brand new br800x blowers.

Running proper mix oil is part of maintenance

69fastback

You seem to like to type paragraphs over things you think you heard. Can you quote where I said anything about how 2 strokes have changed in the last 5 years?


lets review what I did say. 

I said if the difference between blowing up or not, is synthetic vs Dino oil, I don’t want it. That seems to be a personal statement about what I’m willing to buy, and no so much pretending to know anything. It’s a fact. 

I also said I’m running maxima 927 in my stuff. Again, no pretending. It’s fact. 

You’re claim of things changing in the last 5 years will lead me to keep all my old junk running even better. Thank you. 

And since my original statement of not doing your engine any disservice by running Dino oil, and maintenece is more important, was in this thread about boat/car engines, you’ve now attempted to “prove you’re right,” by taking it completely out of context and turning it into something irrelevant to what the conversation was about. 

Now if you’d like to write a paragraph over what I actually said, go for it. 

PickleRick

Yes older equipment is better, the EPA is ruining diesel and 2 stroke engines

69fastback

PickleRick said:

Yes older equipment is better, the EPA is ruining diesel and 2 stroke engines

I totally agree with that. My neighbors truck is in the shop right now with regen issues, and it’s just out of warranty. What a crock of crap the EPA has turned these new trucks into. It won’t go over 40 MPH. 

Although I really like my new TE300i, the fuel injected 2 stroke has taken away from the simplicity of owning a 2 stroke. I have a check engine light on a off road 2T race bike. It’s what had to be done to keep the EPA from killing a great motor. It’s pretty crazy though, how the bike doesn’t smoke, how little oil it uses, and there’s zero spooge. I mean zero. It’s all good until it breaks. So far so good. 

Michael T

I suggest you re read your previous comments @69fastback as you do use the term "blowing up" . MY quotations of your comments are accurate although I do not agree with them. I'm not trying to "prove anything"  - as this forum is not a competition of wills but opinions offered for members to contemplate.  IMO you who feel threatened by someone quoting your comments -  which I maintain were taken exactly in context. I do however yield the last word to you as this has just gotten repetitive and likely of little use to forum members.

69fastback

Michael T said:

I suggest you re read your previous comments @69fastback as you do use the term "blowing up" . MY quotations of your comments are accurate although I do not agree with them. I'm not trying to "prove anything"  - as this forum is not a competition of wills but opinions offered for members to contemplate.  IMO you who feel threatened by someone quoting your comments -  which I maintain were taken exactly in context. I do however yield the last word to you as this has just gotten repetitive and likely of little use to forum members.

You mean when I was responding to pickle rick?  Sorry, I guess I failed to see how that was relative to anything you said, since it was a discussion with him 👍

PickleRick

69fastback said:

PickleRick said:

I should note these are all brand new pieces of equipment with 1 or two uses.   My sales men were not paying attention to the new oil mix needs and sold a few with stihl orange mix oil.  Zero chance for it to be a carb issue and if it was a customer would report bogging before she locked down or in the event of a sudden air leak shed scream wide open before locking down.  All customers had propper mix ratios, one had a brand new ms201t he bought with a 600 and had to finish the job with the 201 after the 600 died.  

I put a new top end on each one with zero adjustments or repairs to the fuel system aside from pressure testing the fuel hose.

I eliminated all other possible causes before submitting warranty, which is what im required to do if it's Briggs and stratton, kohker, husqvarna, hydro gear, stihl or shindaiwa. 

So the difference between Dino oil and synthetic is temperature based. What do you suppose the temperature difference is?  You believe these manufacturers would manufacture their tolerances to be dependent of that slight of a temperature from being okay to total failure?

To answer your question yes. Absolutely.  This is due to the EPA forcing their hand to produce cleaner emissions while keeping their prices competitive.  Im sorry i dont know the operating temps of say an 036 from 1999 compared to an ms362 of 2018.   HeII, todays 89 oct fuel burns hotter than it did 25 years ago.  

Todays 2 stroke makes less torque but more rpms and hp than their older counter parts.  A chainsaw is similar to your dirt bike in turning 10k plus rpms,  but put a 400 lbs trailer behind your bike and tow it up hill at wot for.

This is on the side of a Makita cut off saw.  

As far as the difference between dino and synthetic, dino gives out in extreme temps and conditions quicker than synthetic.  I used to burn waste motor oil in my old diesel land cruisers.  Synthetic oil didnt burn well.

69fastback

PickleRick said:

69fastback said:

PickleRick said:

I should note these are all brand new pieces of equipment with 1 or two uses.   My sales men were not paying attention to the new oil mix needs and sold a few with stihl orange mix oil.  Zero chance for it to be a carb issue and if it was a customer would report bogging before she locked down or in the event of a sudden air leak shed scream wide open before locking down.  All customers had propper mix ratios, one had a brand new ms201t he bought with a 600 and had to finish the job with the 201 after the 600 died.  

I put a new top end on each one with zero adjustments or repairs to the fuel system aside from pressure testing the fuel hose.

I eliminated all other possible causes before submitting warranty, which is what im required to do if it's Briggs and stratton, kohker, husqvarna, hydro gear, stihl or shindaiwa. 

So the difference between Dino oil and synthetic is temperature based. What do you suppose the temperature difference is?  You believe these manufacturers would manufacture their tolerances to be dependent of that slight of a temperature from being okay to total failure?

To answer your question yes. Absolutely.  This is due to the EPA forcing their hand to produce cleaner emissions while keeping their prices competitive.  Im sorry i dont know the operating temps of say an 036 from 1999 compared to an ms362 of 2018.   ****, todays 89 oct fuel burns hotter than it did 25 years ago.  

Todays 2 stroke makes less torque but more rpms and hp than their older counter parts.  A chainsaw is similar to your dirt bike in turning 10k plus rpms,  but put a 400 lbs trailer behind your bike and tow it up hill at wot for.

This is on the side of a Makita cut off saw.  

As far as the difference between dino and synthetic, dino gives out in extreme temps and conditions quicker than synthetic.  I used to burn waste motor oil in my old diesel land cruisers.  Synthetic oil didnt burn well.

Ummmm you said

”Todays 2 stroke makes less torque but more rpms and hp than their older counter parts.  A chainsaw is similar to your dirt bike in turning 10k plus rpms,  but put a 400 lbs trailer behind your bike and tow it up hill at wot for”


This may be true in the small engine world (I honestly have no idea), but that’s 100% incorrect in he dirtbike world. With the powervalve motors of today, the 2 stroke low end grunt is why people use 2 strokes
for hard enduro riding. They’re more like 4 stroke power then 4 stroke power is. It’s why you hear guys like graham Jarvis riding 1-2 gears high and lugging the motor all the time. They make insane low end torque. 

KTM recommends 60:1 for their dirtbikes, and it’s said that my TPI 2 stroke runs at 120:1 at certain throttle positions, as you said, all because of the EPA. And yes, you can’t run those ratios with a Dino oil, or rather to say you shouldn’t. That doesn’t mean running a Dino oil at a lower ratio wouldn’t be fine. Again, that’s tuning and maintenence. Obviously you have to run a 2 stroke within it’s capabilities. 

69fastback

Fixed....

69fastback

Ahhh Dangit. I mess up the quote on my phone. You’ll figure it out 👍


edit: fixed it

69fastback

This all makes more sense now, about blowing up 2 strokes because of oil. If they were burning Dino oil at a 50:1 ratio, sure that’ll burn one up, but that’s not at the fault of Dino oil. That’s just improper use. My SBF in my race car turn 9800 RPMs, but if you try and turn a 7.3 that high, you’ll be picking up parts with a shovel. Improper use, and that’s not at fault of the 7.3. It just has different operating parameters, just like a full synthetic 2T oil vs a Dino 2T oil. Guys run an oil like Motul 800 at 80:1 in their bikes, but if you did that with maxima 927, it should surly seize. But if you chose to run 32:1, or even 40:1, the maxima would be great, and the Motul would foul plugs, neither at fault of the oil. That’s just operator error. 

Like I said, you’re not going to hurt a engine with Dino oil, and now to clarify, if you operate within parameters. Maintenece is far more important than what you put in it. 

PickleRick

Sorry i was interrupted at the shop and lost my train of thought.  It was something about duplicating load.