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Michael T

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Dream_Inn

Yan, I'll remember that next year when you say Still Pond is too far to go for the Rendezvous! >-   (BTW, drive with me on our yearly trip to Virginia Beach, I think that will move your gas gauges)

Black_Diamond

The sending units are probably fouled from growth in the diesel.

Michael T

RY you better install a couple of in-line diesel fuel filters, 'cause if you try to keep up with DI you'll suck all that algae growth inyour non phosphate diesel into your injectors and instead of getting your top speed of 15 knots you'll be stuck at 5 - which based on your fuel usage might be your top speed already. I could go all season on a half tank with my 350s if I kept them at 5 knots too! :-) MT

Michael T

Hey RY,  No ethanol in our juice where we boat. I had the money to go diesel had the Admiral's ok, Did the calculations on a spreadsheet using cost of both fuels - including the cost of hauling around the much heavier diesels themselves (used 300 hp diesels as the benchmark) and the usage numbers barely made sense at that point. If a diesel does not have pods or stern drives but is direct drive subtract 10% to 15% efficiency. Then had a friend who was a the top diesel tech on a submarine and is the diesel guru for miles work out the costs for maintenence across time for diesel. Another tech for gas mills. We factored in the problems with gas(ethanol - in some locations) diesel (contaminants both biological and mineral) as well as the maintenence costs in the area we live. Of course, the original purchase costs have to be factored in too. I could afford the cash purchase of the diesel option when ordering the boat, but factored in what the difference in money would have cost me had I left my money in the market. Also looked at someone having to borrow to pay for the disesel. Then, looked at resale by talking with a few friernds at a few marinas. Most people I spoke with did not want diesels for too many reasons to list here. It was just their personal choice. I talked with a half dozen good sales people and they said  unless tha boat being sold was a really big cruiser - say 45 feet plus that the owner would spend most of his water time at fast displacement cruising - and a lot of hours at that -  it made absolutely no economic sense to buy diesels - and that was the reason why very few diesels are ordered with boats anywhere near our area if they are the "express cruiser" type of boat and are under 45 feet in length. So, although I could have cut a cheque for diesels it made no money sense to me at all. The new 502s/Axius combination is by far the best choice - for me, considering the price of gas vs diesel fuel (about the same) for the way we operate (rpms hroughout the cruising day) for maintenence and for resale anywhere near where I live - it was gas hands down for me. It's fun (and hopefully good natured) to yak back and forth on this site about gas vs diesel. Thankfully there are engine options for boaters who see their needs differently and there is often no clear answer for an application. :-) MT

Dream_Inn

MT, can't wait to see some pics of her coming off the product line!  I'm just thinking, you may at that point be wishing you waited for that new 400! [-X

212rowboat

There is some stupid markup on those diesels.. they are more, yeah, but they shouldn't be THAT much more... I fear there is a lot of marketing hubbub involved... They aren't worth that mark up....

But, if money isn't a limitation, for a rig over thirty feet meant to cruise, they are superior in every way, by my estimates... They will run on a wide range of fuel, one of which will be available in every port... They will run a steady planing speed so long as they have fuel to feed them, and water to cool them, and wouldn't even be fully mature at 2k hours ran at an average of 2.5krpms, where as a gasser treated that way would be a rattletrap..

You keep the fuel filters clear, and cooling system healthy, you'll be g2g.

Michael T

Drew, I agree 100% that anyone who uses a gas engine like a diesel will blow it up. In fact even low horse power (under 300) diesels can produce torque ranges of 500 foot pounds. Apparently some of these diesel applications have been twisting B3 sterndrives - even some of the B3s that have been "hardened" for and "designated" as diesel worthy. It would be interesting to see what Yanmar has done in the design of their stern drive units. It's probably too soon to see how they are standing up to the torque. I did hear thouigh that Yanmar might leave diesel stern drive research to Mercruiser and others. Yanmar and other diesel makers really want pods or sterndrives as I have read (from yanmar and others) that pods/sterndrive designs run from 10 - 15% more fuel effiecient.  Apparently the diesel sterndrives will be good to near 40 feet then the pods will take over. There was a boat in Turks and Caicos last winter (about 80 feet long) that had huge diesels attached to surface drives, maybe Arnesons.  The point with gassers, in my opinion, is to NOT treat them like diesels and then they too will last a very, very long time. The way I use my gassers, - no more that 1500rpm at full displacement and then 3600 rpm +/- at plane with frequent synthetic oil and filter changes - they will last a very long time. As for the many, many boaters in our area who load up their boats with gas, water, gear and buddies and put them on half plane at 2500 rpm - yes they should have bought diesels and yes - they will blow their gassers up. :-) MT

Dream_Inn

RinkerYan said:

Dream, he wont wait as he gets a new boat every 2 years. When is your VA beach trip and where do you stay. How long would it take from Solomons? Thanks!

Should be only ~4+hours, probably a tad over 100-110 miles from there.  It's ~150-160 miles for us and takes 5.5  hours.

Solomons is one one of our favorites.  Been going there for 14 years.  Some reason we always stay at Zahnisers.  People there are great!

Michael T

Hey RY. Please - I'm not taking a "shot" at diesels here. But your top end speed is one of the reasons I need gassers. I live right on a stretch of water, the St.Lawrence, than can take me from the Atlantic Ocean to the end of the Great Lakes and on loops way into the USA and Canada. There are many times where I am heading somehwere to meet people or a deadline and must be able to go 35 to 40 miles an hour to arrive in time. Yes, if a ran for 5 hours at 4000rpm I would probably chamge the oil and filter afterwards. By doing that (which looks ocd) engines that I had twenty years ago are still being used by frineds/relatives without major rebuilds. We scuba dive in the Caribbean from January to March. The dive boats we go out on often go to distant reefs which entails plowing through the water for up to 1.5 hours each way in 4 to 5 foot swells. There are often 16 people plus gear on board a boat that weight 45 tons. This is where diesels really thrive. The Captain just sets the rpm at about 2300  and they run forever. We get passed by faster gas dive boats but they need rebuuilds at about 600-1000 hours. It's clearly not the environment for a gasser.That said for my use the diesel didn't make economic sense but I am fully aware of their abilities and when I "tease" you about them I mean it as just some good natured fun. As well, when guys compare their rides everyone learns new facts and, in my opinion, we should all be life long learners. Anyway, I have learned a lot about Yanmars from our conversations and to me, that`s good. :-) MT

Michael T

RY and DI, .....and when I say I live on the St. Lawrence and sometimes I HAVE to go fast - it's true. There are the 1000 foot lakers (some with 5 foot bow waves), the big go fasts, coming at us at over 100mph - then there are these guys (shot from my living room window) where I boat all of these guys pop up out of nowhere and when I see them coming I feel the need for some speed!  :-)  MT    P.S. Can you see the sea doos jumping the wake of the boat. They're my friend's 17 year old son and his buddy trying to make sure they won't have an 18th birthday party! .....The land in the background is northern New york State. .....BTW that orange marker you see on the water is a mooring ball for the local dive companies. In this area are the largest number of fresh water dive wrecks in the world. Can you imagine being underwater (about 75 feet) at that site when that boat or a 1000 foot laker goes by? It's like the arrival of thunder with concussive waves (fun concussive waves).

212rowboat

diesels are much better suited, by my estimation, if for one reason alone- the lack of combustible gasses, and an unexpected weeny roast.

insofar as performance is concerned, they can easily match gassers- gassers have the advantage off idle, but they usually have a very specific range where performance is maximized... that 'band' is generally only a few hundred RPM wide where torque peaks, and again sometime (usually later) where horsepower peaks..

a diesel has a stupid wide power band, where there is a steady incline on both horsepower and torque- and it lasts (in most applications) over a thousand RPMs.. it can be boosted to deliver a constant psi and cause no harm even over a long/extended period of time, and that same boost can extend the useful band into as much as a two thousand rpm range.

not to sound like a ****, but RY's diesels are dinky in displacement compared to your 350's. I think his are around 215cid, where yours are 350cid... if you were to compare similarly displaced diesels, your gassers are way behind the power curve- if for instance, he were working with a 6b inline turbo diesel such as some of Cummins offerings (361cid), one power plant could easily match output to both your gassers combined- maybe even surpass it in a sustainable way.. the weight and space prohibits twin diesels, but the one could easily be done, and likely comparable in weight to the twin set-up of the gassers.

RY could squeeze, outside of intended envelope of engineers design, likely half again his power by doing some basic mods to that thing of his... primarily: less restrictive air intake (cooler egts), bigger intercooler (again, cooler egts), and machining on his mechanical fuel pump/regulator/injection timing and duration... he would void any hope of warranty, and he would likely reduce the one edge he absolutely has over your gassers, which is sustainability/longevity.. 

I think the yanmar thing was simply what was available and what was under contract that would enter a diesel offering for a reasonable amount of coin... but, we're back to the coins now.. had a Cat, a Cummins, or Isuzu been available, in a similar weight and displacement to those gassers, RY would be puling slalom skiers enroute to VaBeach @ 35mph cruising speed and burning no more than 2/3's the fuel you would use on the same route, and at optimum cruising speed- but if he had that much coin to invest, I'm thinking he would have moved into the 40' range, with gassers...

and THAT, is the crux of it all, in my opinion, is the investment.. as an analogy: I purchased two seadoo's a couple years ago.. I got the 155hp versions, though the 260hp were not a little faster, but a lot.. I figured the fun factor was nearing 99% just being on a ski, and I wouldn't miss the 1% the faster machines would have given- which allowed me to keep over $15k total in my pocket (or to be used in fuel for a few summers) than on a trailer in the garage. :-)

Michael T

Quite true Drew, and dinky diesels have their place too because dinky diesels fit in dinky spaces and in boats that have dinky weight limits. Big boat, big weight limit, big diesel, big cost.MT 

Dream_Inn

As RY said, I think the only thing missing hear a is a few good drinks!  RY, I make some Mai Tai's that make the tiki bars seem like water!  I'll have to meet you down there next summer for a cold one!

212rowboat

There was a touch of dishonesty in my post about dinky displacement, and it involves the turbos..

If ry's spoolers are producing 14.7 psi, and they are in fact 215cid, he's actually displacing 330cid, or the equivalent of... If he's hitting 20ish psi, he has surpassed the displacement of those gassers, in effect...

Those diesels can handle prolonged boost, though..

RY, if you wanna play, put bigger spoolers on there.. I rec batmowheels for this application.. should drop right in.. you may have to put an adjusted Maf/map on there, though.. and, you could likely add some fuel pressure, too, that is within the adjustment level of the pump... It's not like you can lean out that diesel easily, and you'd likely safely punch that things output to the 300~330hp each level..

Black_Diamond

Only $50k? lol

Michael T

FINALLY - we get at the real crux of the issue. It DOES take about 10 years to have a diesel, bought new, pay for itself.  Actually, I worked it out to 13 years especially when one allows for for the lost investment income on the price difference and a LOT more $ if the buyer doesn't have the cash for the price difference at purchase and has to borrow the difference. At which point (10-13 years) I was told re-builds would already have happened, more $$$$$. The only way I see diesels for under 40' boats working money sense wise is to do what RY did and buy them used and hope they were treated well and maintained well - if not  then you'd have to deal with the maintenence and expenses that would probably happen $. As the diesel king told me - if you do sloppy maintenance on a gasser that's not good $$$$$ if you do sloppy maintenance on a diesel that's fatal $$$$$. I'll never see them as a rational $ option for family cruising boats under 40'. Don't forget that 50K doesn't include pods or stern drives so drop 10-15% (V-drives) off the efficiency of the diesel vs gas - there goes any saving on the diesel fuel and based on today's prices that makes the diesel more expensive, more $. Simply put, the math doesn't lie. MT .....BTW DI what are you using that Rinker blender to make Mai Tais for - it was made for Margaritas!

Michael T

RY - Mr. Diesel - you NOW do have a decent option. Have you seen the smokin' new Yannies. The diesel guy I know said tell Mr. RY this : New TWIN TURBO Yanmars (twice the amount of air crammin'). Model 8LV ZF 2800. Get this - 500 pounds LIGHTER, PODS and JOYSTICKS. Full torque at 2000 rpm, best fuel at 3000rpm, total top speed at 4000rpm. HP = 320-370. Recommended by Yanmar for boats from 35' to 70'. Diesel junkies now do have a lighter more efficient system. You might have to run a ponzi scheme to afford them - but they do exist. I haven't looked but my diesel buddy said he the latest BoatTEST.com. has done a decent article on them .Maybe it would be worth a look. ;-) MT.....start saving RY! Hmmmmmmm......Maybe I'll give Randy a call about my new 360??????

Dream_Inn

RY, we do have something in common...Bravo 2s!

MT, I premix my Mai tai's by the gallon (hard to make them after a few) & have them on the rocks!

Black_Diamond

I saw a 54' Cruisers express cruiser with triple diesels and Volvo pod drives, joy stick control. Sweeeet  At cruise burned about 30 gph (total..all three engines), impressive as that's my gph rate.  Just need the $1.2MM  LOL  At least the fuel is affordable!

Black_Diamond

All the OEM's will tell you that.

212rowboat

most likely because you are venturing into an undocumented process..

I've modified my 6.4L PSD to reliably puke torque and squander HP... I did NOT venture into the dark, but used the experiences of others to make decisions, and used their misfortune of making bad decisions to help my engine survive the process...

I'm thinking folks with the cash to drop on those things would likely leave it to a professional or simply upgrade... if that means upgrading boats, then so be it..

all of that aside, and using what we know to be true about ALL diesels, and squeezing performance, here are your options:

- more fuel
- more air to match fuel
- make it's construction stronger

that's pretty simple... what isn't simple, though, is making sure the engine(s) can survive a long while with the modifications.. I would guess your engine would require head studs as opposed to the bolts that are OE... that is easier to do than most would imagine, especially if you have known good gaskets in the first place... so, pull the covers, and remove one bolt and replace it with a properly torqued stud before moving to the next... THAT should ward off any catastrophic/cataclysmic events when you go for the jugulars of fuel and air..

I was thinking about a post you made concerning the thermostat of those things, and I couldn't wrap my head around why you would want to run a 160* thermostat in those things, though that is the OE range... and then it occurred to me why after reading a post you made here... you don't have an intercooler.. your turbos are feeding recirculated air to your intake.. exhaust gas temperatures is directly related to that process, and if you were running 160*, your EGT's are likely in the 350~400* range at cruise, which would make your intake forced air temperature in the 300* range... which you would add significant temperature to if you raised the ECT's.. to the tune of likely over 500*..

are your up-pipes and down pipes water cooled? If so, this is a moot point and that works the same as an intercooler.... and makes the purpose of that cooler 'stat realted to something else.. soft parts in the cooling system, maybe?

after studding the heads on known good gaskets, a simple adjustment to the pressure valve residing on your mechanical fuel delivery pump and a larger turbo would exponentially increase power for you... there ain't no way around that.. for every 5psi on a diesel, add 10%; you can see how that adds up, no?

190HP Naturally Aspirated (rounded)
+5psi (5psi) = 209HP
+5psi (10psi) = 230HP
+5psi (15psi) = 253HP
+5psi (20psi) = 278HP
+5psi (25psi) =305HP

I'd be curious to find out what kind of boost you get from the existing turbos.. do you have a gauge on that thing? I run sequential twins on my rig- one small for 'off idle', which has blades that adjust geometry, making it become 'transparent' when big daddy spooler kicks in (also has adjusting geometry blades, which starts off transparent at idle, but digs in as RPM's and flow increases).. Those twins account for a ceiling of 65psi total.... but I de-fuel at 34psi, in effort to keep it from flying apart.

Of course, because it is a diesel and principles of catalyst:air ratio still exist, the limitation to boost is the ability to fuel that boost, which is the brick wall you're going to run into with OE equipment, and not having aftermarket parts to throw at it like I can the 6.4LPSD, and the reason the illustration of boost=HP above doesn't hold steady as an expectation of gain... it comes down to how much more air your OE fuel systems can handle, and I fear that isn't going to be a lot. <- which is likely the reason your dealers are talking against you making modifications. 

Michael T

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Michael T

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212rowboat

that things is purty... :-)

212rowboat

if your engines are displaced 215cid, maxing your boost, if it is in fact 15psi, gives you the equiv dynamic displacement of a 330cid engine..

if the fuel systems were designed around a 15psi boost, it is doubtful they could feed 20psi, which means torque would fall off hugely without the proper fuel ratio.. the mechanical pump on that thing feeds a common rail with mechanical valve injectors- which means all the pressure is produced at the pump, not the injector such as an HEUI injector does- and that pump doesn't produce a terribly high pressure... that is going to be your limitation, and all you can do is spin the adjustment key to introduce as much fuel as possible.. I doubt that would be enough to produce real power gains.

the purpose of a pyrometer and a boost gauge is for you to find your best suited range... gasser loads can easily be observed by watching a vacuum signal- the more vacuum, the less the load.. oil burners can be observed using the exhaust gas temperatures observed by that pyrometer in the manifold- higher temperature, higher load... the boost gauge can be used to determine efficiency too, but the key to using it to monitor engine health is this: you don't want to see low boost signal at high RPM's- that creates high back pressure on the induction, which is terrible for cylinder pressures, specifically on the exhaust stroke, not allowing full expulsion of spent gasses.. this is tough on everything from the rotating assembly to valve seats to valve faces.. and, it translates into producing less power.. running a diesel engine without an EGR valve and without a blow off valve, it can eat 'em. 

i wouldn't get too hung up on the 'stats rating... but.. what i've witnessed personally, is that my best economy is between 195* and 199* ECT... I don't know what the significance of that is on my rig, but it may have to do with volume/weight of the oil itself being delivered in that range being the expected range of the engineers- meaning, that is the operational temp the engineers had in mind upon injection.. If your yans are designed for 185, 'they' likely engineered that range for it.  My thought process is: if the oil is cooler it is denser and therefor more of it is delivered; warmer/more displacement of oil per volume, less delivery.. but again, these are just notions and not based on hard evidence.

what I would research, if I were you, is to determine is increasing the pressure of the lift pump would increase the pressure of the mechanical pump.. at first glance, I'd guess no- but it would be nice if increasing the supply pressure had an impact on the delivery pump... if it did, it's possible that you cold feed higher rated turbo's, and get some more punch out of those things.

Dream_Inn

Good drink story MT!  I entered mine once in a contest on a cruise.  The head bartender that was doing tasting said it was the best he'd had.  It was served with my name at all the bars on the ship for the wek & I got one free one a day.    (we may have to switch recipes)

Michael T

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