Tow vehicle discussion

TikiHut2

Hey Mike. I'll try to clarify, Your nice trailer rig will never need to worry about a swamp chicken (aka, alligator......tastes like chicken) lurking under the dock when you launch your boat up north. It's a pretty casual thing in the deep south, but fresh water trailer boat captains down here better always have one eye on the water if they wade in to grab a line or push the boat off the trailer. Frikkin fresh water reptiles have a brain the size of a flea and get cranky when you encroach on their space or if they're busy trying to impress their reptile girl friend......or think you're his next girlfriend.

And it's yet another reason to have the right tow vehicle.......and a sidearm...

Here's a little local image I like to call "my mother in-law is at the door again".....and we wonder why everyone doesn't want to live down here

JoeStang

F THAT

Yeah, its nice to sit at the end of my dock and not worry about missing a limb. On the plus side I'd be buying 1/2 the amount of socks for the rest of my life.

MIKES342

Holly Crap!!!!!!!!  I never want to see one of those things at my door. 

rasbury

I will weigh in and say if it's rated to do it, it's rated to do it.  I sell a lot of Ford trucks.  Another example is a Shelby Mustang.  I sold one recently and I was concerned that if he installed the trac package stuff on the car he would have warranty issues for racing it.  I looked into it further and there are no issues. They also advertise the car will do 160mph I think the number is: if you do it and blow the motor, guess what? You get a new motor.  When Ford advertises a rating, it is not occasional use and it's expected to do it routinely if not on a daily basis. The F150 with the V6 Eco Boost properly equipped is rated for 11,300 lbs. and you can do it!

212rowboat

I think the speed rating is 152, and is governed at that speed.. ford is being proactive with the governing.. it will be mandated in the future for all makers.. not a big deal if you bought a shelby, a boss, or a vette, but a huge deal if you bought a bugati or a Ferrari.. no?

212rowboat

Yeah you can.. key: sequential turbos.. two of em.. one big(ish), one small.. tq off the line, steady band for 1k rpm..

JoeStang

rasbury said:

I will weigh in and say if it's rated to do it, it's rated to do it.  I sell a lot of Ford trucks.  Another example is a Shelby Mustang.  I sold one recently and I was concerned that if he installed the trac package stuff on the car he would have warranty issues for racing it.  I looked into it further and there are no issues. They also advertise the car will do 160mph I think the number is: if you do it and blow the motor, guess what? You get a new motor.  When Ford advertises a rating, it is not occasional use and it's expected to do it routinely if not on a daily basis. The F150 with the V6 Eco Boost properly equipped is rated for 11,300 lbs. and you can do it!

Agreed, but I'd wager the 1/2 ton will not hold up to towing at that upper limit for extended time & miles, especially compared to 3/4 ton. For my purposes though, it'd be perfect since I'll only be towing a limited amount of time and distance.

Dream_Inn

I wish I had a picture from back in the 80's of my buddies parents pulling their 26' Sea Ray (cruiser) with an older (~1978ish) Cadillac. It would sink to the ground, then he'd put the equalizer bars on and connect the electric brakes and all went fine. Sure was the scene and got attention going down the road though.

212rowboat

RinkerYan said:

Drew! I had a Ford Dually, 6.0 4x4 and it could barely tow my 5th wheel which weighed 17000.

Sequential variable pitch turbo. Seriously. :-)

raybo3

Hey Al no trim tab's on the EH?? How does it handle loads???

rasbury

With the info available from any manufacturer, it's a simple comparison of torque and horsepower and RPM- nothing particularly scientific going on.  It is easy to see from looking at torque charts what these vehicles do.  You have to disregard your previous inclinations and go with the facts as there is do much new technology in these smaller motors it's crazy! Then, you have to look at durability and bearings and stuff like that but these trucks will do the job! Maybe not our dad's trucks but these newer ones are a whole different animal for sure....

JoeStang

I was pretty pessimistic when Ford came out with the Ecoboost F150, especially regarding when the turbos get higer mileage. I guess its still to be seen how long the turbos and related parts REALLY last, but I know there was a story on some extreme durability testing, and it looked really well put together after 100k VERY tough miles.

 

JoeStang

Very true, but I'd say just about all the 1/2 ton pickups from the past 5 years are all pretty **** well setup for moderate loads (say under 9k lbs) with the proper sway control & maybe an upgrade for cooling & brake pads.

I just read this article, which was very interesting. I had thought the 5.0 was out for my purposes, since the max tow rating of 9,300lbs, but they rated it very highly and were impressed. I know it doesnt have the same MPG as the Ecoboost, but I would think long-term the 5.0 might be a touch less maintanence intensive, since its quite a bit less complex.

212rowboat

The simplicity of the big blocks is why they're so sought after for towing/low range torque.... They produce tq by simple benefit of displacement AND their geometry.. the pistons face square inches ratio to the length of stroke, coupled with the lower in relation reach from crank to cam are the reasons big blocks rock.... To get an equivalent production from an engine that is smaller and has different geometry, there has to be complication.. complications/gadgets break...

You may say "I'm not looking to get a million miles outa this thing", but that isn't where it would break, per say.. it will break when you push through the design capabilities...

I'm going somewhere with this, I swear..

Turbos, even whizz bang sequential turbos with variable pitch blades made of modern material capable of withstanding 1800*, can break.. and WHEN they do, and they will, that poor poor naturally aspirated v6 left behind is exceeding its design pushing a 6k# truck long before there is even a load behind it...

A 5.0 may be stressed more than a ecoboost, but it is within its limits with less complications than the ecoboost.. it will last longer in a situation nearing its limits, and be less likely to grenade than the ecoboost... So long as the ecoboost is running good, its better.. all it takes, for instance, is that ecoboost to blow a turbo boot while under full load, and it may or may not survive such an event.. a n/a rig, though slower and more methodical, will survive so long as you treat it well..

If you don't care about looks, here is one of the best tricks you can use to tow heavy loads nearing a rigs limits: use as small a diameter tire as you can find on it... So long as its still rated for the weight.. axle gear ratio is one thing, but the more important ratio is overall drive ratio.. the diameter of your tires have the single biggest impact on that.. using smaller diameter is lowering your overall drive ratio, plain and simple..

If your axles are 3.73:1, and stock tires of 265/60/20 are on it, and depending on the transmissions final gearing, let's say your overall drive ratio is 2.8:1... Using a tire, say, 255/45/20, your ODR will now be somewhere around 3.1:1... That's huge.. your engine will be happier, your transmission cooler, you'll sway less, you'll produce more rpm's for the same speed, but, you'll be getting mucho more tq to the terra than with taller tires, which in turn makes everything move easier.. you'll look goofy, but that's about the worse of it..

The magic of leverage should never be underestimated.

TikiHut2

All right, that's some fun stuff right there!!

JoeStang

Drew, thats all true, but without a tuner it'll throw the speedo off quite a bit (and rack up more miles on the odometer, too).

 

It looks like you can option the 5.0 up to 3.73, but not 4.10 gears. I'll bet the 6 speed trans is the reason for that, since it should have a lot closer ratio spread than the old 4 speed stuff.

 

The Ram 1500 now has an 8 speed trans and up to 21mpg & 10k towing rating. In a couple years they'll be a great used buy also......

JoeStang

So Al, is the LS7 a "her"?

SeaHare

Since this is a tow vehicle thread, with my recent purchase of a trailer, I too am looking for a decent tow vehicle to tow the 310. I dont drive much only 5-10k miles a year so im not lookin too fancy or expensive. Just something that will do it safely. Tryin to stay around $10k. Im figuring diesel, my price range puts in the 7.3 - 6.0 era of fords with high miles... Cummins and Duramax are out of my price range. Im not sure if the V10 would suffice either.. (Al, do you know what a 310 and a loadmaster trailer weigh?)

212rowboat

A high mileage 7.3 is above 500k.. a high mileage 6.0 is above 200k, things being relative.. :-)

Between the two, a 7.3 i's the more reliable by far.

JoeStang

Thats brutal Al!

Have you ever driven/rode in a Z06? It would probably change your mind on it being a "small" block....

I wonder why noone ever marinized the LS7, cost? I know it doesnt have the torque at idle compared to say the 8.2 mag, but the midrange and top end in a boat would be unreal, especially for its weight.

TikiHut2

Wahoo. That's some sticky looking gumbo right there. Been in that same situation with a really sweet RamCharger we used to play in the mud with. Didn't own a power winch and got waaay back in really long tight spot and then proceeded to get real familiar with a shovel/timbers/jacks/winches for about 3 days. Ahh those were the days.

Black_Diamond

You know you buried it good when you have to step UP out of a CJ.

Black_Diamond

Good one Al! Just what I meant. Jeep lover at heart here.

BoatAway

not the monster displacement you guys are talking about but... read a piece on the upcoming Dodge Ram V6 Diesel. towing capacity is something like 11K and mid 20's fuel economy. all for starting price of $24K. pretty interesting package....

212rowboat

boost is where it's at, and the sole reason why smaller mechanically displaced engines can do what they do..

believe it or not, I'll keep this brief, and just for fun use very rounded numbers...

there is mechanical displacement, and then there is dynamic displacement- and the same rule holds true for compression... one (mechanical) speaks of the cylinders displacement.. while talking compression, it speaks of the stroke vs. the cylinder volume+deck height.. it is easy to figure... dynamic isn't so easy to figure as it takes into account valve events, and when the valves close.. a piston may be as much as a quarter of the way into a compression stroke before the valve closes, which means you would have to reduce both the displacement and the compression calculation to deduct precisely how much air (displacement) is being compressed, and how much it's being compressed (compression ratio).. it's one thing to say mechanically an engine is 6.0 liters, and 9.5:1 compression, but another to find (dynamically) it's only compressing 4.5L @ 7.5:1...

boost is another animal.. call it 'dynamically adjusting displacement', which is exactly what it does.. it crams air into the engine as opposed to naturally aspirating it.. a 6.0L engine that has an actual dynamic displacement (due to those valve events) of 4.5L can now ingest 9L IF/WHEN the boost hits a full atmosphere at 14.7"... for every 14.7" of boost, add a atmosphere, or add another wad of the dynamically inducted and naturally aspirated volume.. hence, 4.5L @ 0psi boost is 4.5L... 4.5L @ 30psi of boost is 13.5L equiv..

boost makes smaller displaced engines capable of turning numbers comparable to larger displaced engines, plain and simple.. BUT.. they need encouragement to do so, which means it's not on tap instantly.. turbos need to spool, and super chargers need to adjust air:fuel.. the added gadgetry allows for more likely mechanical failures.. there is always ALWAYS a push/pull give/take when determining which direction to go, huh?

212rowboat

even a two speed for your yans would be huge... you're top end, if pushing through a 1.8:1/1.2:1 step would push you likely 10mph faster, given your load is minimal..