Engine Sync

HamdogHamdog Member Posts: 247 ✭✭

Hey guys,

Already missing the boat BIG TIME!! I check the forum everyday for ANY boating news from ANYWHERE. Helps with the withdrawal.

Thought I'd ask a question. My sync gauge as well as both tachs have been kaput now for about a season and a half. Even the Faria tap no longer works. Doesn't bother me that bad as we normally only make about a 15 minute run to drop anchor. But I was thinking maybe not having the engines in sync might be hurting the boat? Probably not off by 500 rpms or so but would like your opinion. Could I be damaging the boat? What if I made an hour run? What if I'm off by 1,000 rpms?

You guys see an issue doing this?

Thanks.

"Wetted" Bliss 2005 Rinker 342 - Black Hull - Twin Mercruiser 350 Mags - BIII's

Comments

  • Michael TMichael T Member Posts: 7,227 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hey HD, i don't think the engines being out of sync by 500 rpm would harm them mechanically per se. I think it would be at the threshold where you would start to have a loss of fuel efficiency. As you moved up from 500 rpm and particularly at the 1000 rpm  you mentioned in your post I would expect there to be significant steering pull. I had a set of twin 502s that were out of sync by 200 rpm and I didn't even notice until I up-graded my tachs from crappy to Gaffrigs. I'm sure Alan and some of the other guys will comment. In my opinion I would not want to run my twin mills without tachs. I rely on my tachs more than my speedo. MT
  • Black_DiamondBlack_Diamond Member Posts: 5,439 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Michael T makes some great points. My tachs mean more to me than my speedo too. If you are off 500rpm usually you can hear it, hard to describe but noticable, at least with my 350MAGs

    Past owner of a 2003 342FV
    PC BYC, Holland, MI
  • Lifes GoodLifes Good Member Posts: 465 ✭✭✭
    edited January 2014
    Generally I don't think you'll see damage to the drives or engines by operating them 500rpm off from each other. However, I am a Murphy's law kinda a guy. So here is what runs thru my head. One engine burns more fuel and the other gets a free ride. One engine and drive works harder than it could possibly added more wear than the other or at least shortening the life of the oil and drive lube. Transom plate with higher rpm engine would be taking on more pressure than the other. Long term not sure if it matters, but that's just how I think.
    I am with BD and use my rpm guages but first listen for the rolling purr of synchronized engines matching the same rolling pitch. I have a FloScan system and when one engine is even off 200 rpm from the other my burn rate difference can be up to 2 gph different. That's huge so 500 would be much more of a spread.

    Hope everyone in the MW has a safe winter... the weather man says its going to be a record breaking nasty cold front!

    Take care

    LG - Mark
  • HamdogHamdog Member Posts: 247 ✭✭

    Thanks LG.

    That 2 gph more fuel burn would obviously concern me since we are planning to make a 4-day exploration of the Lake this summer. I think I will look into the FloScan System next season. About what would one cost to purchase and have professionally installed?

    Thanks,

    Hamdog

    "Wetted" Bliss 2005 Rinker 342 - Black Hull - Twin Mercruiser 350 Mags - BIII's
  • kneedeepkneedeep Member Posts: 103 ✭✭✭
    My tachs & a few other gauges don't work well or consistently, to the point that I don't trust them anymore. I'm planning on having Mercury Vessel View installed before this season. It gives all the info the standard gauges would give & a ton more - including fuel use. I'm not sure on the cost. I see the older version on ebay for 1,000-1,300, but I want the newer version that just came out. I haven't seen them on ebay yet. In addition to buying it there will be the install cost & a new dash panel.
  • Dream_InnDream_Inn Member, Moderator Posts: 7,661 mod
    I have the vesselview and wouldn't do without it! tons of great info and many things that you can watch and prevent further issues before they happen(ie water pressure). I also have the digital auto sync, but I still look at the digital numbers on vv. As mentioned, fuel flow between engines happens with just a few hundred rpm difference. My other thought is the day you sell the boat you will want the gauges working, so might as well do it now.

    Dream 'Inn III -- 2008 400 Express

  • Michael TMichael T Member Posts: 7,227 ✭✭✭✭✭
    KD, Take a look at the new Vesselview 7. I had the "older" version (pre February 2013) on my 2013 Rinker EC 310. I have the new version  (post February 2013) on my 2014 Rinker EC 360. From what I can tell so far from the manual the new Vesselview 7 has a whole bunch of amazing new features and would, in my opinion, be worth the extra $ from the older version. MT
  • kneedeepkneedeep Member Posts: 103 ✭✭✭
    I agree, I'm going to do vv7. I like is the cruise control - I think you can set it to maintain a specific rpm or speed.
  • Dream_InnDream_Inn Member, Moderator Posts: 7,661 mod
    I know mine is the older version and has the cruise control. You can also have it come up on plane using a few different acceleration curves. I'll have to see what the new vv has to offer. Always fun to look at new toys.

    Dream 'Inn III -- 2008 400 Express

  • Lifes GoodLifes Good Member Posts: 465 ✭✭✭
    @ Hamdog

    Not sure what the labor cost would be. Maybe 6 hrs plus. For me it took about 8-10hrs. Its not hard to install. It just takes slow methodical time and reading the instructions over and over again.... Twin application is the 9000 series. Google FloScan. They are here in Seattle and a very trusted brand. I did mine about 5 years ago. Main unit around $600, plus the purchase of 2 fuel scanners, barb fittings and micron fuel filters placed prior to the fuel scanners came in around $800. That's a lot of coin but it paid for itself the first year. I actually increased my speed by 5 KNOTS and what I saved in fuel burn paid for the unit. I like the FloScan only because it is free standing from the GPS unit. However with my new Garmin 5400 touch screen I bought a couple of years ago with split screen options it would have been far cheaper to buy the Garmin fuel scanners and plug and played right to the Garmin. I can say the FloScan is always with in one gallon accuracy at 100+ fill ups so 1% accuracy rate is darn good.

    I have penta 2006 5.0 270hps. So my computer options are very limited. I believe 2008 and higher, the options are nearly unlimited. If I had two year newer engines I'd skip the FloScan and go totally digital like the guys mentioned above with thier vesselview systems.

    What ever you pick, just don't go another season without a fuel monitor. What ever the cost... its total worth every penny and more importantly piece of mind on true fuel remaining!

    Good Luck


  • kneedeepkneedeep Member Posts: 103 ✭✭✭
    Lifes good, when you say you increased your speed 5 knots, do you mean that the boat runs more efficiently at a higher rpm/speed? What size boat do you have and what rpm & speed do you cruise at?
  • Lifes GoodLifes Good Member Posts: 465 ✭✭✭
    I have a 320. Best fuel burn speed is around 29-31 mph. RPMs turn at 3750 - 3950. My old planning speed was around 26 -27 mph. In other words, increasing my speed and RPMs the boat is no longer lugging along even though the lower speeds felt just as comfortable.

    Another way to explain the gain in efficiency... my old speed gave me .95 MPG. My new average is now 1.1 even though my gph burn increased as I throttled up... my over all gain in speed made it up with better mpg.

    Again twin 5.0 VP with the new ocean x DP drives two years ago. Salt water.... Clean painted bottom with 10ft dinghy and 9.9hp motor on transom / about 200lbs, genny, full fuel and water, weeks suppy for three. O yeah trim tabs at 20% and drives around 10%. So pretty happy with the results. Must be the wide beam. :-)

    If I had 5.7s the RPMs would be slighty lower achieving the same speeds allowing for even a better fuel burn. My guess 1.25 mpg as my buddy's 29 chap with similar set up as mine gets 1.75 mpg. Now he is about 3000 lbs lighter.

    LG
  • JoeStangJoeStang Member Posts: 1,122 ✭✭✭✭
    The more people get the MPG monitors, the more it seems like the conventional "slow planing speed" as the best fuel usage is debunked. It seems more like 3500-4k rpm gives the best MPG for a lot of applications.


    2013 276 Cuddy ~ 350 MAG / B3
  • Capt RonCapt Ron Member Posts: 217 ✭✭✭
    edited January 2014
    I noticed the same thing as LG with my 320 as well. I always cruise arounf 3800 to 4000. I get better fuel burn results for the 5.0 L engines.
  • TikiHut2TikiHut2 Member Posts: 1,431 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2014

    Early on I recognized that monitoring fuel flow was the most accurate way to determine ideal trim for max fuel efficiency. Being budget minded I went with the Garmin GDS-10 fuel flow sensor ($130) tied to a modest Garmin 441s chartplotter with a Garmin NEMA 2000 backbone($65). An eventual upgrade to a bigger/newer Garmin CP will easily bring full engine system monitoring capability too.  That said, my '04 5.7 merc w/B-3 runs best mph/gph at 4k rpm. 

    I certainly agree that getting there a bit quicker by running at slightly higher rpm than might seem ideal will cause less run time, so after synchronizing your twin the next best savings is in finding the sweet spot between longer/less run time, ideal cruising rpm and of course boat trim for the conditions. I can now see the slightest change in trim/rpm and how it effects fuel consumption. Synchronizing rpm with our single Mercruiser isn't the issue in my rather portly but cushy TikiHut but I still get about 1.8mpg on a typical day at cruising speed loaded for a long weekend.

    If I strip the boat of its canvas and pork that creates a ton of drag it'd probably do 2mpg+ but then I'd be complaining from sunburn, lack of beverages, companionship, no snacks, steaks, movies, fuel, ice, beer, water, rum, beer, anchors and chain, beer, rum, etc..... and that's just not worth it now is it? :D

    So 1.8mpg is about it for us at cruising speed. On the other hand the boat will go to 3mpg at about 1300rpm running 6.5kts but as a former stickboat captain for many many years I've paid my dues at that speed. Don't even get me going about hailing EVERY bridge, running aground in 5' of water or especially about how often sailors have to motor anyway.

    Just sayin', Mike
    Post edited by TikiHut2 on
    2004 FV270, 300hp 5.7 350mag MPI Merc 305hrs, 2:20 Bravo3 OD w.22p props, 12v Lenco tabs, Kohler 5kw genset, A/C, etc.etc...
    Regular weekender, Trailer stored indoors, M/V TikiHut, Sarasota, Fl
  • Michael TMichael T Member Posts: 7,227 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Guys, your comments make sense. Our 2013 EC 310 with twin 350 mags would hold plane nicely (in my opinion) at 3300 rpm BUT my SmartCraft/Vesselview gave me my best cruising mpg at 3500 rpm. Mike, I agree 100% with you. We didn't purchase a boat to save gas, of course I don't like to waste it unnecessarily either, but we did buy a boat to haul anything we deemed necessary for fun and comfort. If saving gas was my main priority I could have bought a canoe with an electric solar powered motor - yeah - what fun! :-) MT
  • 212rowboat212rowboat Member Posts: 2,593 ✭✭✭✭✭
    gasser economy is all about engine load expressed by vacuum signal.. the more vacuum, the lessor the load.

    diesels equiv is exhaust gas temperature.. the lower, the better- the lower, the more complete the burn, the less smoke, and the less load on the engine.

    a practiced ear can tell on both...

    with either, there is a distinct sound when the engine is gasping for air, most evident on acceleration.. it is at these times, with a gasser, when the vacuum signal drops to -1~-5", or becomes non-existent.. this means means the engine is inducting all the air it can, but it also means the engine is injecting/jetting maximum fuel as well.. which tosses your air to fuel ratio, and washes cylinders with unspent fuel.  your economy is spent right through your exhaust. 

    I'm not familiar with the vessel view set up, but I imagine it uses three keys to calculate- engine throttle position, engine vacuum, and injection duty cycles expressed in lambda.  knowing those, and reconciling them with additional points of interest (such as fuel flow), you can mange those engines pretty well.. but you can do the same thing with your ears, if you're practiced enough- which most of us are, but we just don't realize and quantify in a way that's useful. 

    there is that bog sound that is unmistakeable, once you've nailed it down.  If you can manage an engine from a higher RPM to a lower RPM, and tune in to the sound, listening for the bog to reduce or eliminate- I bet a dollar to a doughnut what your vessel view is telling you is what your ears already know, and that you've found optimum cruising speed....

    I'm willing to bet that y'all already use that bog sound, and the levi dyno when trimming the tabs and drives, and just use the speedo and tach to confirm what you already know...

    I don't trust gauges very much.. I wouldn't mind having a vacuum gauge on the dash, but that is quite a distance to run a hose and expect reasonably accurate readings- and it is a lot of exposure for that line/hose to develop an abrasion and create a vacuum leak..

    The purpose of my rig is to float me out to a sand bar two or three times a week during the summer.. I could really care less about fuel consumption, unless it is way out of whack- and only then as to warn me that something is wrong.  IF, though, I had interest in cruising any accountable distance, I would be very interested in fuel consumption- not because of costs, as that is just a part of boating, but instead in terms of distance and range... I like to have range. 
  • HamdogHamdog Member Posts: 247 ✭✭

    drewactual,

    Very good post and I am entirely in agreement. I enjoyed the lesson and I actually have pretty good ears for the way the boat is performing.

    I will add that I have learned a few things. I have never used the trim tabs except for port to starboard trim and only a few times. I have also never used the "trailer trim" either but I do remember the marine guy when I was buying it telling me to "bump" the "trailer trim" a notch but I never did.

    I will play around with everything this spring.

    Thanks for all the info. This forum is another great reason to buy a Rinker!!

    Hamdog

    "Wetted" Bliss 2005 Rinker 342 - Black Hull - Twin Mercruiser 350 Mags - BIII's
  • HamdogHamdog Member Posts: 247 ✭✭

    And this is kinda funny and revealing.

    When I bought my 342, it was delivered from Lake St. Clair in Michigan to Lake Cumberland in KY and was my first twin engine boat. The biggest boat I had before was a Bayliner 2855, stripped to the bone with a single engine. Loved it but didn't know what I was missing.

    Anyway, I had the 342 delivered to a local Marine Service Company where I had fresh bottom paint, new batteries installed and everything serviced. They preferred to launch it at a different marina due to water depth. So I had to take my new boat (alone, my wife was driving the car) about 15 miles to my new marina. Never even been on the lake before. When I asked when do I know to make the right hand turn, all I got was you'll just know. Now the telling part. I NEVER TOUCHED THE TRIM CONTROLS. Not that I didn't know to but more because I was as nervous as a cat in a room full of rocking chairs. And it was pouring rain with 20 mph winds!! I must have been an idiot.

    Turned it sideways putting it into the slip and did a bit of fiberglass damage but I got it in and all that has been repaired. Much better Captain today but would not have given that day up for anything!!

    Hamdog

    "Wetted" Bliss 2005 Rinker 342 - Black Hull - Twin Mercruiser 350 Mags - BIII's
  • kneedeepkneedeep Member Posts: 103 ✭✭✭
    Thanks to everyone for sharing their data. With 3/4 fuel tanks & a medium load, My 340 with 350's holds plane nice around 3700-3800. Below 3700 it keeps falling off plane & I have to adjust the throttles. It seems to run nicer at 4000, but I don't like running the engines that high - even though several people have told me 4000 is fine. It will be interesting to see what my fuel burn is once I install the vessel view.
  • Lifes GoodLifes Good Member Posts: 465 ✭✭✭
    I don't think most of us worry about the over all cost of fuel since we do own boats. The biggest gain is fuel remaining for distance and while filling back up knowing when to slow the pump down before you have a blow out. The mpg is secondary and just fun to see how tight you can make your boat run efficiently. It in turn kinda forces you to run at a better cruising speed. And chat about with fellow sailors!

    LG
  • kneedeepkneedeep Member Posts: 103 ✭✭✭
    I agree, fuel is a small part of the boating expense & is not my biggest concern. My thinking is that the best mpg should be the least strain on the engines. Less strain should equal longer, more reliable engine life. I don't know much about engines & maybe I'm oversimplifying, but this is why I want to find my most efficient cruise speed.
  • TikiHut2TikiHut2 Member Posts: 1,431 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That'd make a good thread without diverting this one. Go for it. I'll chime in. 
    Mike

    2004 FV270, 300hp 5.7 350mag MPI Merc 305hrs, 2:20 Bravo3 OD w.22p props, 12v Lenco tabs, Kohler 5kw genset, A/C, etc.etc...
    Regular weekender, Trailer stored indoors, M/V TikiHut, Sarasota, Fl
  • 212rowboat212rowboat Member Posts: 2,593 ✭✭✭✭✭
    kneedeep said:

    I agree, fuel is a small part of the boating expense & is not my biggest concern. My thinking is that the best mpg should be the least strain on the engines. Less strain should equal longer, more reliable engine life. I don't know much about engines & maybe I'm oversimplifying, but this is why I want to find my most efficient cruise speed.


    Pull the heads on an engine with some good time on it, or, get a good scope and peek down a spark plug boss..

    Engines that have been treated well will have hatching still evident on the cylinder walls.. hatching is a purposely done scoring of cylinder walls that float the piston rings in a direction conducive to good seating, as well as scour the piston rings in a way that marries them to that specific cylinder for the life of the engine..

    Improper air to fuel ratios will devour that hatching.. lean a:f runs hot... Rich runs cool.. the metals used in engines are intended for a specific range.. cooler is nearing as bad as hotter, in many cases, and especially for rods, journals, and bearings.. lack of quality oil, oil viscosity, and flow will devour it, too.. bad fuel (uhem, ethanol) is very **** them..

    An engine that operates in the engineered environment, the one intended, will last a long dang time if properly maintained, given there are no manufacturers shortcuts.. I've not seen any notable shortcuts with merc.. move over to the automotive world, every maker has their tricks to cut costs, and that is frustrating..
    If Al is watching this thread, an as an aside, I am wondering if merc has joined the dark side and are using plastic guides and pedestals/rocker arms like most auto makers are now?

    You keep the 'tude, dude, and your engines will always take care of you.. that's my philosophy, anyway..

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