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Kohler Genset issues... just wondering... there has to be a solution.
212rowboat
Member Posts: 2,591 ✭✭✭✭✭
I don't have one, but keep reading about issues dang near everyone who DOES have one has keeping it functional.
If there is interest, can we discuss this?
If there is interest, can we discuss this?
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disregard my last... if I have the right one here, they are electronically controlled both fuel trim and ignition timing..
A lot can be learned from pulling a plug and getting a good look at it, and see what kind of conditions are in that chamber...
I'm guessing, it being a throttle body fuel injection, and the fact mechanical compression is so low (8.5:1, which means the dynamic compression is likely around 6.5~7:1) you guys are seeing cool fired (rich) plugs..
My issue is with the term often used is ......"the kohler 5e eats plugs". "Eating plugs" could mean anything, and I have no idea if it's meant to say fouled or gapped from excess heat. Thanks for starting a thread that might also have a knowledge base link to all the insight that's been shared by others to get these back in running order. DI has been around the hill on these as others have too...... some are still looking for the elusive magic bullet......before they actually put one into their genset.
I haven't had any issues with my 5e and so maybe regular use is somewhat of an answer in keeping fresh fuel in the system rather than letting tiny ports get varnished up. The other thing I've NEVER done is use fuel with ethanol or delay regular maintenance schedules for plugs/oil/filters/impellors. That's all I have..
Mike
either fuel pressure is off (high pressure side, not the lift pressure), or, you have a bad injector... fuel injectors are rated to spray a precise amount of fuel, but based on a precise pressure.. the emerging industry standard for the rating (and hopefully eliminating confusion) is 43.5psi... an injector may spray 252ml of fuel per minute @ 43.5psi (which would make that injector nearing 24# injector) BUT that SAME injectors spray characteristics alter HUGELY when pressure is increased or decreased... I'm not talking it's DELIVERY (that is obviously going to change as well), but instead it's CHARACTERISTICS.
in this scenario, an injector receiving it's proper does of pressure (say 43.5psi for speaking terms) sprays a nice predictable pattern at that pressure.. but when pressure increases it becomes a pencil stream, when it is reduced it trickles.. neither of those are good for running an engine. Both will foul a plug and wash cylinder walls w/ excess fuel.
the injector itself, if it is an older design (pre-2004 or so) it is a single hole sprayer.. newer ones use four holes to better atomize the spray.. that is very good for the engine, but, as you can imagine the four holes are smaller which allows them to become clogged easily- THAT changes the characteristics of the other three, too... Anytime you have fuel in liquid form entering the combustion chamber, you're asking for trouble.. it burns more completely when it's in tiny TINY droplets... OR.. when injection is advanced to the point the spray hits the backside of a hot intake valve just before being ingested.. this is easy to do with MPI engines, and not so easy to do with TBI engines.. the TBI maintains a a:f mix in a plenum, and stages it there to be ingested on the next breath the engine takes.
All I really remember was that these are built with Kawasaki engines that have been discontinued but he felt that they were often just underutilized and became problematic from lack of attn. He said that they were fine for what they are designed to do......which sounds about right. That said, another dealer overheard our conversation and offered to buy my 5e if the pan under the engine was intact (maybe it's an indicator of how well it was maintained?).... probably for parts that couldn't be found any longer. I also went to see the Westerbeke guys this year and they'd probably be the best replacement for those who are at their wits end and depend heavily on their genset.... or can't find parts.
Like yourself I think there's a common link in what people are experiencing. Here's a few links to other 5e discussions (below) Hope this thread roots it out. Thanks for adding your insight.
Mike
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Fuel Injection on small engines is a tricky thing- they are affected a lot quicker than their larger cousins by impure fuel and foreign objects in the fuel..
also, I noticed that Kawasaki uses a water temperature probe nearing the throttle body... presumably to determine fuel trim based on operational temperature? It would attempt to run rich at start up if so- wetter a:f ratio's are harder to ignite than leaner ones, which is the reason EFI's fatten up the pulse- wetter is less likely to pre-detonate.... that probe sending a bad signal, or the ecm/pcm operating with an unrealistic temperature table could certainly cause hard starts and fouled plugs.
Dream 'Inn III -- 2008 400 Express
I'll chime in with my worldly knowledge of a 5e with problems.
Mine is a carburated, so the FI is out of the loop. Since day one of the boat being new it never ran long, multiple service calls under warranty by Kohler and never a solution. The last service call under warranty they ran it for about 8 hrs no problem, I started it up the next day while still in the service slip and it ran maybe 10 minutes before it shut down.
I never use gasoline with ethanol. Ran a fuel line from a gas can with fresh premium gas and a bottle of gumout at one time trying to clean the fuel system out.
Did find the OEM fuel pump electrical connection was bad (arcing too!) and hard spliced it. Thought I had it licked at that point, but noooo.
Spark plugs: I never pulled a fouled plug out (I'm familiar with the handy chart Drew posted), but I can tell you new plugs will work as many people will attest.. I suspect they go bad internally. The engine will run on (1) plug until you load it up, and runs fairly smooth too.
I spoke with the Kohler guys at the PowerGen show last fall..they said use a Kohler engine not the Kaw, suspect they know of issues, but not a lot one can do about changing the engine out.
I removed the fuel filter at the fuel pump and use an in-line one that was installed by Rinker. The one at the fuel pump is a pita to get to, at least on my 342.
So, in ~60 days when I go back in the water I'll retest my 'solution' from my saga last fall on fixing this thing: leave the service cover off the sound shield. I ran it fine with it off after all my shotgun repair tatics, put the cover on and it died again, cover off it runs fine. Either a lack of air for the engine or fuel line over heating (runs right next to the coil - verified this last weekend).
If ever given a choice in the future I would pay a premium to install a Westerbeke.
PC BYC, Holland, MI
Dream 'Inn III -- 2008 400 Express
Wasn't there other input/threads/knowledge base data on this issue. All I found were the manual and the 3 threads I posted above. Maybe the others were from the previous site that was lost.
Is there a list of versions/variations based on mfg date? Is there some mfg date that might have been problematic and was later rectified?? Are the fuel injected models before/after a certain date problematic/trouble free?
DI may be on to something with a CO det. Even if it's defective/hypersensitive.
I've been holding my breath on this everytime I hit the start switch. Can't imagine not having my genset after getting used to it. Good luck with that upcoming startup BD.
Dream 'Inn III -- 2008 400 Express
If you remove the plugs, chances are you bumped the coil (via the plug wire) and cause the wire to be the path of least resistance once more, until it gets hot and finds ground elsewhere again..
One of my famous lines in another forum is "is yer coil fellow?... If so throw it as far as you can and get an OE one"..
BD, you asked me before somewhere about using an MSD coil in the stead of the OE.. they are called 'coil near plug' packs, and they intercept the plug wire (regardless of charge) and use it as a signal to send a pretty stout charge to the plug.. they are a pretty easy way to amp up your ignition..
Coil packs usually are relatively cheap.. it may be worth your effort to swap them, and carefully inspect the casing.
PC BYC, Holland, MI
I wonder what other eqt has this same Kawasaki engine and whether they have similar issues.
BD, That's a great accumulation of info. I'll be bookmarking this thread under 5e info for the day when my luck runs out or my coil/genset gets a personality issue. in the mean time I'll keep running it as often as possible. Great input on these beasts and good to know.
Still don't see an MSD that would hook up to this, but I may well be missing something. The 5e (and the 7.3e) has (2) coils and (1) igniter. If my issues re-appear this spring, I might just replace them too and see what happens, there are only so many parts on this thing to replace. 8-}
The engine itself was very popular on lawnmowers..but almost always the air cooled version as the liquid cooled versions have too many problems due to user abuse and lack of TLC (regardless of engine type) - think commercial mowers and the yahoos who drive them. In that business the Kaw engines are highly regarded.
This is the replacement OEM coil..guess you have to crimp your own connector for the spark plug and reuse the spark plug boot. Replacing the non-service side coil might be a big pita, I'll have to look before I jump on that. Another Boat Unit for (2) new ones
Interesting this part is at the top of the page for replacement parts, usually an indication of frequent replacement in my experience. http://www.partsfortechs.com/asapcart/359784-coil-ignition-kohler-p-897.html
PC BYC, Holland, MI
If anybody's interested I found the guys name that I met in Miami at the show, Mike Potter of Noahs ark repair in Cocoa Beach Fl. Also spoken highly of by others across the country on similar forums.
Here's an interesting quote from a genset consumer from another cruisers forum.....
"After following these message boards for the past 9 years and reading just about every generator thread ever put up, I have come to three conclusions...
1. you need to run these thing UNDER LOAD to keep them happy
2. whether its QS, WB, Kohler or Onan, they're all quirky and if you survey multiple owners of each brand you will get an equal number of major gripes and major satisfaction.
3. see 1. "
If there's a common denominator in all gensets it seems to be circuit boards and sensors......aggravated by long periods of no use and a marine/salt/moist environment. I know the very shallow gutter that runs around the edge of the engine compartment on my 270 happens to run RIGHT over the control box on my Kohler. It's a wonder it'd last a year getting spill-over with each rainstorm or spilled rum n coke....... Hey, maybe it's the r/c that's been neutralizing the salt on mine giving me a more reliable genset... hmmm.
BD, that is a bit interesting the way the coil is right there at the top. I'd be curious how many are sold and how often.
Tiki, you are so right running them under load. There is a really good & knowledgeable person on the BoatUS forum (Kapt Keith) that does nothing but repair these generators. He also says the best thing is to run them under load. He's helped me (& many others) with Kohler issues. I also like the rum/coke! Mine gets the red Mai Tai's on it!
8-|Dream 'Inn III -- 2008 400 Express
http://www.kawasakipartstore.com/?gclid=CNDN44KWjb0CFRJo7AodQWAAyw#/Kawasaki_Engine/FD501D-AS00_4_Stroke_Engine_FD501D/ELECTRIC-EQUIPMENT/FD501D-AS00/99910-A6090070
there is no MSD that is a direct replacement... there is a host of MSD and other ignition suppliers that can be implemented via moderate surgery..
I doubt your ignitor is fouled.. I'm placing all bets on coil.. the symptoms of coil failure is rarely an all out stoppage, but instead something that feels precisely like a really bad case of predetonation, or better described as loss of power and sputtering accompanied by a sound that resembles a bunch of marbles in a tin can.. the engine usually 'winds down', and may or may not match spark to RPM again before dying. often times a bad coil will make starting hard or impossible, but when you bump them they fire right up.. I've never opened one up, but I've been told it's usually a break in the insulator which allows a hot spot to deteriorate the coiling, and promotes grounding through the casing. It makes them a bear to track down... my first personal experience with a bad coil ever happened right after a tune up- and when I thought to replace it.. ordered it and put it on a few days after the tune up (yamaha moto).. less than 50 miles later the problems started.. I thought I'd wired it incorrectly... nope.. I thought I may have broken a plug wire.. nope.. I lost power and coasted to a stop, pulled the seat off and put my hand on that coil and it was hotttttttt... I put the old coil back on there and never had a problem again...
when they cool off and the wiring of the coil itself contracts, they usually fire right back up.. the loss of conductivity due to broken continuity may be very slight and allow the juice to jump- but only in certain RPM ranges (which may be attributable to 'load')... just tapping the coil after a crash can often get them to work again, albeit in a diminished capacity.. (which is what I did on the side of the road with that yami... understand I was young and didn't know that would fix it, I just wanted to hurt it back ) :-)
I think I've talked myself into believing the coil(s) are the primary issue with those things... and it fits the descriptions you fellers explain of 'hard starts', 'running for a while them dying', ect....
you have an ignitor which sends signal for spark based on cranks position rather than a dizzy. the coil is a coil is a coil, it uses two wraps of wire to create a magnetic field, and based on the number of 'wraps' increases voltage (momentarily) when the circuit is interrupted. they all use ketters principle to do this.. some leak more than others and lag (dwell) either hot or cold, running out of spark (high rpm) or generating too hot a spark (low RPM) both of which affect performance.
The request for 'under load' supports this, as a properly temp'd system is cleaner (too hot an ignition will burn up parts, too cool will allow deposits to form).
an MSD doesn't use ketters principle as it's sole means to generate the spark, which means it can produce a much more reliable and fatter spark. you MUST gap your plugs wider, though, or you'll blow the tips right off them.. the wider plugs also allow the 'fatter' spark to ignite more a:f instantly as opposed to initial spark igniting the rest of it.. hence: better, cleaner performance. Your systems use an ignitor which maps crank position and timing.. you can't lose it.. you can lose the coil following it, though, and there are a host of coils that can do the job, so long as it is a single channel coil and fits in the space. Be advised, though, too hot a spark can cause issues too.. I choose the MSD as it draws it's own power which eliminates running out of spark, and also a more consistent spark across the RPM spectrum, which means a better start and low RPM function.
if you're looking for a direct plug in replacement and think that is what I was inferring, let me make it clear i wasn't.. you'll have to connect your own leads which is easy to do if you use a coil that generates all it's power via ketters principle, or.. you'll have to lead to a power source AND connect to your ignitor as well if you select an MSD style ignition. it's not hard, though, and doing so will move you fellers away from the coils you have presently to one a whole lot less likely to give up the ghost on you.
Some other comments on the forums say that it may be the circuit boards failing on some units and that a swap fixes the issue until the board fails again. One poster and high hour user of his Kohler 5e has been through 5 boards in the years he has used his. Again, the location of those control boxes and the wet enviroment they live in seems to lead to an early (if not erratic) demise. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see if fresh/saltwater is overrunning a poorly designed engine hatch gutter and dumping right on a genset that it'd cause trouble and rather predictably poor performance.
And then it's sensors that sniff and test flow and levels of a host of delicatly balanced ranges, any of which can mess up my plans.
It'd be great if it was simply one weak link causing such frustration but it's probably a few things in some sort of descending order of frequency based on the type of use, date of mfg and environment it lives in. I'd hope this thread can lead somebody with a cranky genset to the top 5 most likely problems and solutions for their situation but I guess the manual and the trouble shooting page is just such a resource for a new genset, while the value of our captains and the combined real world fixes we've found are even more likely to be what users will need.
Luckily we have some pretty astute gear heads floatin' around here on the Rinker forum who know far more than me. Sure has been interesting so far.
Mike
PC BYC, Holland, MI