Oil? Filter? Mystery?

Michael TMichael T Member Posts: 7,227 ✭✭✭✭✭
This was a new one for me and apparently for my Merc. tech and some of the guys at Merc. HQ. While on a recent trip I got a "Service Engines Now" message on my vessel view monitor. When I turned-off the engines and restarted them thereby re-booting the vessel view the warning would go off - but - be back the next day. The warning was in the color blue. I called this in to my marina's techs to see if I should wait for them at the marina I was visiting. They got back to me to ask if the screen had "gone red" to issue a critical alert or if my engine RPMs had been limited. I said no. They said I could proceed to my home port. Today a tech spent about two hours on my boat. About an hour of that time was spent on the phone with a "hot line" tech at Merc. HQ. A computer was plugged into the smart craft port to read the engine codes. The first determination was that the engine hours had not been "zeroed-out" (like on a car) when the oil was changed in the engines, last Fall, during winterization. A few days ago the engine hours hit 100 at which point the vessel view sent a "service now" code as the oil in the new 8.2 Mags should be changed at 100 hours, if not sooner. Even though there were only about 30 hours on the new oil the vessel view management system did not know that because the tech had not zeroed-out the hours at the oil change. We zeroed-out the oil change date and the code was erased. BUT - It gets better. A second management code emerged. I mentioned (and the tech had seen this himself) that when the engines had been left idle for more than 24 hours they "clattered" at start-up ( a noise that I hate) and a red message was displayed on vessel view that there was a critical low oil pressure. This always went off after about 5 seconds. The techs had thought this was normal as the V V was just reacting to low oil pressure at start-up. Maybe NOT!  Because when we were using the computer to check codes it became apparent that the engine guardian system had been limiting engine power to 5% during one start-up to protect the engines. THIS sure got the techs talking! Here's what they are speculating - at the moment: The oil filters my marina uses are a very well known brand that rhymes with "spam". The theory, at the moment, is that these filters do not have any kind of check valve that stops a complete oil drain from them thus leaving the top of the engine unprotected at start-up. The plan is to install a couple of the new Merc. high efficiency (not high performance as I first said!!!) oil filters that should prevent this? BUT ... I have another theory. I have always used FULL synthetic oil in all of my engines. I have never before had "clatter" on start-up. Merc. HQ USA has told me that I am not to use FULL synthetic, even Merc's brand, as it is not formulated for the new catalyst engines. I am supposed to use the synthetic blend. Is it that the new Merc. synthetic blend is not protecting my engines like the full synthetic did?  What do you guys think? Mystery, yes?
Post edited by Michael T on

Comments

  • Black_DiamondBlack_Diamond Member Posts: 5,439 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well the clatter is from the oil draining out of all the galleys, lifters, etc. 

    the issue with catalyzed engines is the zddp additive (zinc). It will ruin a cat. 

    The Spam filter is not all that great. Convert to a WIX XP type for syn oils. Just my .02. 

    You can always add a preluber to the engines. Common on big diesels. Just one type:  http://engineprelube.com  Some use small pumps too. 

    Past owner of a 2003 342FV
    PC BYC, Holland, MI
  • Michael TMichael T Member Posts: 7,227 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2015
    Thanks BD. I wanted Merc. HQ to have a report on file so that no one could say that I had ignored a code warning and voided my warranty. I wasn't told to, but I think I'll install the Merc. high efficiency filters to see if they retain any oil over a few days. I would really like to use Merc brand full synthetic but as you said I was told not to with the cat engines. 
    Post edited by Michael T on
  • pepmysterpepmyster Member Posts: 308 ✭✭✭
    We've seen this on certain car engines at work, start with the oil filter. Your Spam is not holding oil for the start up, is a very possible cause. Use what came from the company.

    All I've wanted was to just have fun.

  • 212rowboat212rowboat Member Posts: 2,591 ✭✭✭✭✭
    yeah, I HATE 'spam'... back around 2000, they had an issue with a particular filter doing precisely what you describe (anti-drain back valve; bypass valve) and to the point Mopar issued a TSB to replace any spam filter that arrived on a customers vehicle no matter the reason for the vehicle coming in... this particular product spun on a cummins 5.9... 

    'spam' freaked... they sued and won... Mopar had to recall the TSB and bury it as if it never happened... they couldn't issue another 'not' calling out spam, either, due to the terms of the suit... 

    this is the part that kills me- slays me, actually-  all 'Spam' had to do was place their hat in their hand, issues apologies and spend the coin to fix the problem... you know, the same coin it took to pay the attorneys to protect their products image in court... but they didn't... they opted for the image protection option... so.... I'll NEVER run any product made by them...... ever.... People lost their engines, and the warranty didn't cover it because it wasn't a cummins or a mopar supported product... that is just plain wrong. 
  • Cableguy GregCableguy Greg Member Posts: 5,011 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I used to use the spam filters on my car engines, but after seeing a post on the old forum, I started using OEM or Wix filters. I took @Alswagg's advice and started using Wix filters on my boat. I will only use Wix or the Merc high performance filters on the boat.
    2008 280 Express Cruiser, 6.2MPI, B3, Pittsburgh, PA "Blue Ayes"
    Go Steelers!!!
  • 212rowboat212rowboat Member Posts: 2,591 ✭✭✭✭✭
    now about your clatter, MT:

    synthetic has zilch to do with it... Synthetic... Dino... Blend... Group 1,2,3- group 4 and 5 super syn ester based.... yada yada blah- it doesn't matter one way or the other if they are maintained properly.  50weight, 40weight, 30 or 20 weight... modern oils and philosophies based off of advancements of the past 10 years entail, now, that 'lighter is better', as the additive packages suspend and hold better, but that doesn't mean that heavier is worse, it just means the approach to achieve the same ends is different...  

    your filter has everything to do with it, especially if it's draining.  if it's draining, it's also likely bypassing, meaning you aren't filtering the oil at all, or very little... I'd wager the new merc engines operate off of pressures like many (most) new cars do, and it's a pressure sensitive system... obstructions increase pressure as it interrupts flow- when the pressure has been steady and higher than whatever parameter, it assumes it's the filter and/or ash laden oil causing it... and it tells you to change it.. 

    when you turn that engine over at start up, and if the gallery is empty of oil- the lifter rollers ride the lobes and press against the push rods which actuate the rockers and in turn the valves.... if that lifter pushes against a push rod and it isn't bathed in oil when that happens, it pushes the oil charge out dang near completely, and it doesn't have anything to recharge with..... clatter clank clunk.... the push rods are hollow and send the oil through them to the valve train, and the second time the push rods actuates the rocker, there is no oil coming out- stamped rockers now are pressing against springs and valve ends dry- and that isn't good... especially because manufacturers now use mostly ballistic plastic tipped rockers, which require that oil to maintain their integrity.... 

    in short............ I'd be some kind of tweaked if I were you. 
  • Michael TMichael T Member Posts: 7,227 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2015
    I am beyond pi**ed-off. I now have Mercury High Performance filters and will use them on my engines from this point on. I never thought I'd say this, but thank God I have been feeling so lousy due to the chemo this summer as the boat has hardly been started and when it was it was usually started within 24 hours of the last use, so there were only a few times when I heard the "clatter" noise. New Mercury High Performance oil filters will be going on the engines tomorrow morning.
    Post edited by Michael T on
  • Handymans342Handymans342 Member Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That little clatter wont hurt anything MT
  • Michael TMichael T Member Posts: 7,227 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2015

    I think you may be correct Steve. I just posted some info on the data my dealer forwarded to me from the download of my vessel view yesterday. From it I can see that the engine guardian only came on once and only for the starboard engine. That notwithstanding I have the Merc. Hi-Efficiency oil filters and they're going on tomorrow.

    Post edited by Michael T on
  • Handymans342Handymans342 Member Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Good choice MT. Question, are your filters mounted right side up? Mine are upside down. 
  • Cableguy GregCableguy Greg Member Posts: 5,011 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Good to hear that you are going to replace the filters, but I would be questioning the dealer as to why they are using spam filters. One would think that they would be using Merc, Sierra or Wix filters.
    2008 280 Express Cruiser, 6.2MPI, B3, Pittsburgh, PA "Blue Ayes"
    Go Steelers!!!
  • Michael TMichael T Member Posts: 7,227 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2015
    Yes, Steve mine are mounted "upside down" so that probably promotes oil drain down :-( The dealer has been chastised by me already. They will credit me with the cost of the Spam filters against the cost of the better mercury filter. From this point on no Spam filter will be near my engines  I also must apologize as I used the wrong term to describe the proper mercury filter for my engines and will open a new thread to make sure anyone who had read this knows of my error in PNs  MT BTW I should have said mercury high efficiency oil filter pn 35-858004K
    Post edited by Michael T on
  • Michael TMichael T Member Posts: 7,227 ✭✭✭✭✭
    up-date - I was at the boat today. I removed the two "SPAM" filters. The engines had been run to fully warmed-up status 24 hours earlier to check fault codes and when I pulled the "SPAM" filters today there was maybe one drop of oil from each. They had completely drained, they were DRY. I installed two Mercury High Efficiency oil filters. I will post the results of my next start-up but I expect these filters to retain oil for start-ups.
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