Inverter System

ChesapeakeChiller

I am looking into getting an inverter for my boat so late at night I don't have to run generator to watch TV ETC (if rafted up). I have been researching for a while now and think I have only made this a more complicated decision. I have a built in generator and only 1 standard house battery (I have to look to see exact type). I want to run TV's, DVD, PS4, phone charger ETC. for a few hours at a time without generator. Also on the 24V side same house battery system would be 2 refrigerators that need to run all day and the rest of the standard things lights ETC.

I don't want to run extension cords around the boat so I think I am looking at an inverter hard wired to outlet circuits and adding batteries or maybe one of these inverter combos with ION battery's.

I don't have a ton of room for battery's, I calculated my draw except for the 24V items refrigerators ETC. any idea?

I will not run AC, stove or microwave on inverter.

MarkB

Believe it or not the PS4 is going to draw the most power. If the inverter power is insufficient the PS4 will cut out and power off.

frenchship

Are you sure that you have 24volts equipements on your boat? The refrigerators work on 12 volts or a/c 120 volts. To run all this equipments on a inverter you would need a very large batteries bank and you would still have to run the generator or engine to recharge the batteries

Michael T

IMO @frenchship and @MarkB have nailed it.

So, first I think you should only have a 110v/12v system. I have not heard of - on small cruisers - mixed 12 and 24 volt systems. Of course I am surprised by my lack of knowledge every day! LOL

As a rule you can calculate the amount of battery Amp Hour support that you will need by this formula: the inverter should have access to a battery bank that has at least 25% Amp Hours as the inverter is rated in watts. So if you wanted to install a 1000w inverter you should have 250 Amp Hours of house batteries available.

I looked at this for my EC 360 and ruled it out. Instead, I have 3 Series 31 AGM batteries, each with 105 Amp Hours rating. That's a total of 315 amp hours. So for that beast of a house battery system I should only install a slightly bigger than 1000w inverter. Yes, that would run a microwave by itself and a few other things by themselves but not a number of things at once and the draw on the batteries would be significant.

I have friends who don't follow this rule but they definitely reduce the life of their batteries, suffer shut downs and definitely put some of their electronics at risk with unclean power and voltage swings.

If you really want to do this I would look at Thin Plate Pure Lead AGM  Batteries. Their Amp Hours will be the same as Series 31 AGMs but they will re-charge using your generator or alternator 300% faster than any battery and can be deep discharged 400+ times at 80% of their rating.

FWIW, in my case I have 3 series 31 AGMs wired together properly. They will run my two fridges at full while cruising along at low speeds (like idle) as well as a 12v T.V. - no problem. They will power two fridges overnight on the hook as well as a cabin fan and the odd use of lights to go to the head and flush the head. They re-charge quickly the next morning by using either the generator or if the boat is up on plane and the alternator is spinning!  This system could meet your needs as you have defined them but not all of the equipment you mention, at once. You'd have to choose.

BTW ll If you wire into your boat's system, particularly with higher amperage wiring for higher amperage loads I would use tinned marine wire and I would definitely have a marine tech certified in wiring sign off on my work for safety and insurance reasons.

Inverters will work fine, particularly pure sine inverters, for your electronics..... but you don't get a magic bullet with them and there is no "free" electricity. Your batteries will pay for your 110v power for sure.

So, do you actually want an inverter or maybe 3 Series 31 AGMs or even better 3 Thin Plate Pure Lead AGMs .....and to complicate matters a bit more, will your present battery charger charge batteries that have different chemistries?

This is doable if you do it right, have the room and have the money - BUT is it the way to go or is it better for you to use a few great AGM house batteries and your generator to compliment them?

Of course another way to go would be to have a small portable generator. Honda makes a great one as does Yahama. Both of their small models can be daisy chained to a second one for even more power if wanted. I believe Yahama even makes a special small model that will handle high initial "surge" loads from AC units. These small generators are compact, light, quiet and won't drink gas like your Kohler.

There are very detailed threads discussing these generators on this forum with boaters like @frenchship who have done exactly this.

ChesapeakeChiller

Thanks, yes that was a typo its 12VDC Batt.
Any experience with inverter combo unit like Mastervolt Combi with Ion batteries

frenchship

I think you would need more than one house battery before you even think about an inverter.
in regards of your ion batteries , the original charger in your boat won't be able to charge them,toy would need a special charger for that......

Michael T

Not personally but I have heard directly from boaters who have used Mastervolt systems and Mastervolt batteries that they loved them. A guy who was discussing AGM batteries with me last summer had a Mastervolt system with Mastervolt's 90 AH AGM starting batteries (two) and Mastervolt's  160 AH house batteries (two) . He said it was great. I asked him about Mastervolt's lithium ion batteries and he said they were too expensive, in his opinion, for what you got. I think he said the 12v 180 AH was around $5,000.00. If I got that right that is pretty expensive. You could run your generator forever for the cost of one battery.

If I were re-doing an older battery system I'd make sure my charger could charge AGM  and AGM Thin Plate batteries. If not, I'd get a new charger. They aren't that expensive. Then I'd get a Series 31 AGM battery for each starting engine and either 2 or 3 Series 31 AGMs for house batteries depending on my room , weight allowance and budget.

That's what I did on my 360. BUT if they had been available when I bought my batteries I would have paid a bit more and gotten the Series 31 AGM Thin Plates because they have huge CCA and MCA capability and their re-charge rates are totally amazing as is their discharge cycle capability.

I never really liked inverters unless someone doesn't have a generator. Even then I'd go small portable generator before an inverter set-up. IMO inverters work great for big cruising set-ups in long distance cruising yachts or for tiny inverters to run some simple low load items.

ChesapeakeChiller

Good info thanks, I am still bouncing the idea around in my head. I may end up trying to install a sound shield on Gen. and well fumes would still be issue but at least quieter at night.

sixpacksummer

Michael T, a question about your 25% rule. I have never heard of that but a lot of things fit that category. Is the 25% based on the maximum capacity of the inverter or 25% of the maximum output required from the inverter? I have a 2500W inverter hooked to a 900AH AGM battery bank so based on your rule I am a little undersized. But the maximum watts used at any one time is no more than 1500 so if I used that figure I fall into the acceptable guidelines. I have never had any problems and have gotten 6-8 years out of each battery bank. I have an inverter because I have a full sized refrigerator, hard to keep a refrigerator cold unless you want to run the generator constantly.

Michael T

It was a "rule" that electrical power companies went by for remote powered units etc. The minimum they would like to see is 20% to not overwork batteries, so you would be fine. The extra 5% was added for a safety margin. If you have 900AHs you have one h*ll of a system. IMO you are one of the few that did things correctly. Beautiful!

Cableguy Greg

I tried to install a Dimensions Unlimited Pure Sine inverter on my 280. I have 2 Group 31 AGM deep cycle batteries on my house circuit that I connected it to. Needless to say, the inverter drew the batteries down very fast. I would need 2 more batteries on the house circuit to get the system to work. It is a great idea, but the battery draw is more than one would think. Maybe it was the inverter that I was using, but I decided against it.

http://www.magnum-dimensions.com/product-inverter/2400w-12vdc-pure-sine-inverter-n-series

sixpacksummer

Michael T, this set up is on a houseboat not a cruiser so room for the battery bank is not a problem. Since we stay out of the marina for a week or more many times during the year it comes in handy not to run the generator. The inverter has a built in three stage charge that charges 100-50-10 amps. It runs a full sized refrigerator, 3 ceiling fans and 2 TVs. It is hard wired into its own circuit box and those items are isolated from the rest of the circuits. Appreciate the kind words that at least I did one thing right.

Michael T

@sixpacksummer - that's an amazing set up. I have to say if I had it all to do over again I would consider a houseboat. I have been on a few recently, the real estate footage is amazing and most of them cruise at very good speeds. I can't think of a better platform that gives the value for money and the amenities based on the ones I was on. This may be news for you, - it sure was for me! I was going through the locks last year and going through locks is often not easy with a houseboat. A guy came in with a big one, just he and his wife. He brought it in like it was on rails. I yelled out 'Great job!"  He yelled back "Thrusters". We couldn't stop to talk as the canals were busy but that is the first time I have heard of thrusters on a houseboat - what a smart guy!

Michael T

Greg, yes that is what many of my friends have found out too. Unless you do what @sixpacksummer did and have massive AHs it is very hard to get sufficient power from an inverter for any length of time if you are using more than one appliance.

MDboater

Don't forget to account for the conversion efficiency of the inverter when you size your system components.  100 Amps at 12 V (1200 W) going into an inverter will produce less than 10.9 Amps at 110 V (1200 W) coming out of the inverter.  I would assume an 80% conversion efficiency and increase the battery capacity accordingly.

sixpacksummer

Greg, it probably has little to do with the inverter and more to do with the load you are trying to power. MDboater, does that efficiency have anything to do with the size of cable you have hooking your batteries together and from the battery bank to the inverter? I have 2.0 cable but have no idea of the conversion efficiency.

Michael T

@6PS, yes, the cables have everything to do with the ability to transfer amperage. In fact you can lose up to 20% of your cables ability to transfer power in an overheated engine bay, that's why it's important to have the correct sized vents and run the blowers if necessary on a very hot day. You can google conversion efficiencies, often on battery company web sites. I believe East Penn Deka used to have that info on their web site. If you called their technical services branch you would be speaking with one of the best in the USA. West Marine has charts in their catalogues that may be on line too.

sixpacksummer

MT, just wondering, 2.0 cable is awfully big, it is the largest cable my inverter will accept, will do a little research. My batteries and inverter are in a rather cool area, far from any engine/generator heat.

Michael T

@6PS, that's good news! The following environments drop ANY wiring cable's ability to carry amps: heat proximity (engine room) and tight bundling(heavier 12v loads with wires zip **** bundled in raceways)

 If my math is correct your #2 cables (OD15/32") should be able to carry 150 amps for a round trip length of circuit of up to 15 feet, by 20 feet that's down to 100 amps.

For 12 volt wiring of higher load requiring items deduct 10% voltage drop. For 12v wiring of light loads - running lights etc. deduct 3% capacity.

I looked for my wiring tables and couldn't find them but comprehensive ones are available online. For your use unless you have some pretty long runs #2 IMO is darn good. #2 has a generally accepted rating of 210 amps (minus) any deductions

BTW #1=245 amps.....1/0 = 285 amps, 2/0 = 330 amps. 3/0 = 385 amps, 4/0 = 445 amps and so on.

 

sixpacksummer

MT, I identified  my cable as the wrong size. My batteries are wired to my inverter with 2/0 cable and batteries are wired together with the same. Run from batteries to inverter is 3 ft. I had the cables made to the maximum specs the inverter could handle.

Michael T

@sixpacksummer, you are laughing! Nicely done!

Cableguy Greg

sixpacksummer said:

Greg, it probably has little to do with the inverter and more to do with the load you are trying to power. MDboater, does that efficiency have anything to do with the size of cable you have hooking your batteries together and from the battery bank to the inverter? I have 2.0 cable but have no idea of the conversion efficiency.

I didn't have any load on the inverter when I turned it on and it started draining the batteries fast.

sixpacksummer

Something has to be hooked up wrong. If the inverter is not producing power then it is not draining power from the batteries. Mine powers my refrigerator and other items. When the refrigerator cycles off and nothing else is on there is no draw from the batteries. What is hooked to your inverter?

Michael T

6PS is onto it. Check the ground(s). IMO  there is no way an inverter would drain the batteries that fast if not powering something - a lot of somethings. 

Cableguy Greg

It is the style of inverter. When it is on, it produces a pure sine wave and has the available wattage at that moment. This is a very heavy duty unit. Heck, it weighs close to 60lbs. It is rated at 2400 Watt constant with a 6480 Watt peak.

Michael T

Pure sine wave is the way to go for electronics. For my education are you saying that it is not electronically governed to respond to load? If it is producing power such as to drain the batteries, without load, where is it storing it, in a capacitor?

Cableguy Greg

I haven't opened it up to look, but I am sure there is a cap in there along with some massive heat sinks. There is a 4" fan to cool the thing. It is a beast...

http://www.magnum-dimensions.com/product-inverter/2400w-12vdc-pure-sine-inverter-n-series

Michael T

You can't go wrong with Magnum. So, do they suggest shutting it off manually when not in use? Man, I would think it was demand regulated?????

sixpacksummer

I am lost on this one. I don't understand "when it is on". Mine is on all the time and has an automatic transfer switch. When shore power or generator power is present then it is in charging mode thru the built in charger. When it detects no power it transfers to inverter mode. I could not run my inverter if it drew 2500 watts per hour on a continuous basis. Mine has a 4" cooling fan and weighs 45 lbs. I just have never heard of an inverter that works that way. Many of our boating friends have inverters and none draw continuously.

Cableguy Greg

That inverter was not designed for a boat. It was designed for a work truck where you are running high wattage tools, ect. MT, yes, it can be set up with a remote on off switch which I was going to wire to the generator start stop switch in the control panel. @sixpacksummer, what inverter do you have? I might look into getting that style as opposed to what I have and isn't connected.

sixpacksummer

I have a Tripplite model 2012 2500 watt. I looked on their website, it is now a 2400 watt. I have the modified sine but they also sell a pure sine of the same model. It has a built in three stage battery charger so when you are on shore or generator power it is charging the batteries. When power is missing the inverter kicks in. I have it hardwired into a separate breaker box for the specific items to be powered. I have had one for 13 years and could not do without it for my needs. We stay out of the marina for days and without it my generator would be getting a workout and also my wallet for the fuel for a 10kw generator.