370 Gas Tank Replacement

At the end of last year we discovered a leak in the starboard gas tank. I knew it would be bad, but I had no idea of the magnitude until the final quotes were in this past week. I'll have a lot to say about it, with pictures, in the future, but I need to make a quick decision on how to remedy a related issue found while the boat was surveyed by insurance.

The port vents to the engine compartment are wide open. Unlike the starboard, which have hoses run down toward bilge, the port vents allow any salt water to come directly in and fall onto... the port gas tank. Which now has corrosion. I bought the boat from Rinker and presumed the configuration was correct, but... The yard is worried about overly restricting ventilation by adding hoses. What is supposed to be there to keep water out? 
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Comments

  • benvenuttiokibenvenuttioki Member Posts: 128 ✭✭
    Late last season we started smelling something odd in the cabin. It had a petroleum-like smell, but not gas. We only noticed it when the A/C was on. I looked everywhere in the forward and main cabin but could never locate the source. This went on for weeks and the odor gradually got stronger and noticeable all the time. We were using the boat and I never smelled anything odd during engine checks. But eventually, it was very clear that it was gas.

    I literally put my nose on every fuel hose and connection I could get to in the engine compartment. Nothing. No smell at all back there. I called in someone from the boatyard. Nothing in the boat but "normal boat smells." BS. We had stopped using the boat by this point, but the weather was usually good, so we opened hatches and stayed aboard every weekend, still searching.

    In late Sep I noticed that the mid-cabin area had a heavier odor. I removed the seat cushion on the starboard side, just aft of the electrical panel. It was coming from there, but there was no gas. No film. Nothing. I opened the mid-bilge. No odor. Odd. We washed out the area under the cushion and went home.

    The next weekend when we arrived at night I could smell gas from the dock. I had left the cushion off and could see gas. Batteries were disconnected the next morning. Thankfully the bilge pump had not kicked on, but it was close. The boat was pulled, and offloaded. It was Oct and we were done.  




  • YYZRCYYZRC Member Posts: 4,896 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That is devastating, and your boat is not very old!

    My port side vents are wide open the same as yours. Starboard side has the hoses to the blowers.

    Do they have to cut up the floor, or can they get the tanks out by removing the engines and generator?
    2008 350 EC on Georgian Bay
  • rasburyrasbury Member Posts: 8,218 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My worst fear...but I think on the 270 with the motor and genny pulled I think it would come out...
  • aero3113aero3113 Member Posts: 8,777 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @YYZRC are the 350/370 vents in a different location than the 330? I can’t remember 100% but I think on the 330 the vents aren’t near the fuel tanks. I know my port side is open and my starboard has ducts for the blowers.
    2008 330EC
  • YYZRCYYZRC Member Posts: 4,896 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2023
    @aero3113 are basically in the same location. 


    Post edited by YYZRC on
    2008 350 EC on Georgian Bay
  • LaReaLaRea Member Posts: 7,505 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sorry to hear it!  I agree with the yard -- do not add hoses to the vents.  Those vents are air intakes for the blower system.  The hoses on the starboard vents are there to draw fuel vapor up from the bottom of the bilge.  I would not modify that system.  

    Instead, find and fix the root cause of how water is entering through the vents.  There's a cover to direct rainwater away from the vents, right?  Did the factory forget to apply caulk to the seams?  Or has the caulk failed?  You should not be getting any water through the vents, except maybe a little splash when washing the boat.  
  • YYZRCYYZRC Member Posts: 4,896 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2023
    @LaRea on the 2008+ 350/360/370 the vent holes on the port side are located above the batteries very close to the aft edge of the fuel tank. The fiberglass gunwale cap is caulked along the top and bottom edges where it mates to the hullsides. I'm not sure where the water would go if that caulk seam had a breach, but it is above the fuel tank for sure.

    The forward most oval cutout is aesthetic only. The port side aft oval cutout has 5 blower holes but no hoses attached (unlike the starboard side). 



    Here’s a zoom in where you can see where the blower hoses attach (starboard side shown but same execution on port side)



    Here is a photo of the top of the gas tank 



    When the blowers are on, air enters the bilge through the port side and through the transom locker vents and exits the starboard side.
    Post edited by YYZRC on
    2008 350 EC on Georgian Bay
  • LaReaLaRea Member Posts: 7,505 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @YYZRC thanks.  I'd also inspect the base of the hardtop as a likely spot for water ingress.  Mine had a leak where the window attaches to it.  I've also had leaks up on top that drain down to the base.  
  • YYZRCYYZRC Member Posts: 4,896 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2023
    If there was a void in the caulk where the gunwale cap meets the hull at the base of the hardtop, you would definitely have a lot of water intrusion onto the fuel tank. A lot of water runs off the hardtop and down the canvas to that area. 


    2008 350 EC on Georgian Bay
  • benvenuttiokibenvenuttioki Member Posts: 128 ✭✭
    edited March 2023
    Thanks all. The yard is recommending a baffle just inside that would deflect spray aft and toward bilge, but not interfere w/ airflow.

    After we got the boat out and gas out of tank and bilge, the effort to find someone to work on it began. Our "full service" boatyard wouldn't touch it, nor would they refer us to another yard in the area. Some of our slip neighbors recommended a nearby yard, so we had her put back in the water and towed over after winterization was complete. I contacted our insurance and they assigned a surveyor. Maybe I could get some coverage. By this time it was early Dec.

    The surveyor couldn't assess anything until the tank was removed. The insurance couldn't determine coverage until the surveyor found a cause. The boatyard gave me an estimate of $20K, which the surveyor/insurance thought was a good price, so no other quoted were required. Oh, corrosion isn't covered by insurance, so if we started I was possibly (probably, I thought) on the hook for the whole thing. Merry Christmas.

    Leading up to the quote I talked w/ the yard a lot about how to get the tank out and another back in. The fiberglass guy wanted to go the most direct route; through the hull. I was in favor of going  the cabin bulkhead aft of the electric panel. Ultimately, we agreed to pull the fresh water tank, gen, and engine then cut fiberglass in the engine compartment to pull it out. When the yard opened back up after the holidays, the project manager I was working with had left and head of the yard had my boat. We decided to pull it out of the cabin.

    The tank came out. It was bad. There were two holes in the bottom. There was salt all over the area where the tank came out. There were multiple lines on the side from where it was bathing in water. For a loooong time. Zoom in on the pictures.


     
    The tank sat in a fiberglass pocket with rubber 1/8 in thick straps holding it in by compression. There was only that much clearance around the side. And there was no drainage. None. Any water that got in stayed until it evaporated hence the lines. Who the heII puts an untreated aluminum tank in a bathtub on a boat! I was pi$$ed. Still am. Mostly, I felt physically ill.

    There was evidence of water dripping down from where the "arch" joined the deck. There was evidence of water running down the hull-deck joint under the rub-rail and dripping down. I also remembered that in '21 the blue plug on the starboard engine broke and salt water was spraying all over the water tank area when I happened to open the hatch while engines were running. I cleaned the area w/ fresh water, but at best that would have diluted what was already trapped, though I'm not sure if any water would have gotten that far forward. 
    Post edited by raybo3 on
  • rasburyrasbury Member Posts: 8,218 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2023
    Wow, that just sucks and my worst fear. We have had these discussions before on here but fortunately not often. I don't get the instalation of these tanks either, like it's and after thought, like, " oh we need a fuel tank somewhere, let's stuff it here!" These tanks should be lifted from their nest with drains to keep the water away and since this does happen, should be designed in a way they can be removed...I have an 06 270. If 20 grand is the number it would be scrap it out time I guess. I had a cabin leak which also came over the bulhead and the genny(frame is rusting out) and over the tank. I'm fresh water but I'd still think the same issue. I recall one other on here where the cut out the floor to remove the tank which does not look like the way to go to me. I'd pull the genny and the motor and the hatch and pray it would slide out- not sure what the length of my tank is....

    Good luck and please keep us all posted.
  • benvenuttiokibenvenuttioki Member Posts: 128 ✭✭
    Final installment. I mentioned the open vents on port side. There is also corrosion on the aft top of the port tank that seems to be attributable to salt water through the vents. I would think this would be more common if the vents are the cause. So, if there's water getting to the top of the tank and causing corrosion, is this tank also sitting in a bath and do I replace it, too? 


     The port tank is significantly harder to deal with. Over 2x. When I added the two together, panic set in. Is it worth putting the money into the boat? If it's not, how do I escape? Short sale? Parts? None the ideas made sense.

    So, I'll bite the bullet and fix the starboard side and hope the port is not slowly rusting away.
    • Replace tank w/ coated aluminum
    • Create drainage in mounting location
    • Add stand-offs to create air gap around tank
    • Find and fix leaks in hull/deck and top for entire boat
    • Clean port tank and replace fittings if required
    • Add deflector on port vents (maybe)
    I guess that's it. I gave them the authorization to proceed this week. 

    So why am I posting this? I have no idea what I could have done to prevent the problem. How would you know there was no drainage? How would you know there was water accumulated? I never had much water in the mid-bilge to indicate a leak. Maybe, by airing my trials and sparking discussion, somebody else may avoid this in the future. I've made my peace w/ the situation and my decision. Now, I just want my boat back and be on the water this summer!!
  • YYZRCYYZRC Member Posts: 4,896 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2023
    @benvenuttioki that last pic looks like water is running down the hose and accumulating on/around the tank. That clamp is totally rusted out! I would put a disc around the hose further up to determine if that is indeed happening. 

    Another possibility is that water is accumulating in the pan that is under your cockpit fridge/ice maker and draining down onto the tank.

    I agree it is a terrible design to have the tanks sitting in their own bathtub. Your plan is exactly what I would do. Are you going to have the starboard tank repaired, or are you replacing it?
    2008 350 EC on Georgian Bay
  • Rich_Rich_ Member Posts: 125 ✭✭
    Did tanks maybe 10 years ago. Originals lasted 30 something years. Once one was leaking they all got exchanged with new since the originals lasted 30 something years. Was a big undertaking but was able to pull them by just removing engines and shuffling them out. Good luck with your project.

    Started with removing risers on outside to clear edges. View is standing midship looking down into engine room towards stern. 

    Engines out. Standing on aft section of engine hatches. Under foot are three tanks- 135 gallons on each side and 60 in the middle.

    Two of three tanks out. This view is from engine room looking aft. Last 135 gallon tank can be seen on left side of picture.

    2002 180      Eastern LI, NY
  • LaReaLaRea Member Posts: 7,505 ✭✭✭✭✭
    benvenuttioki said:  ... I have no idea what I could have done to prevent the problem. How would you know there was no drainage? How would you know there was water accumulated? ...
    The only way you could have found it is visual inspection, but it's a place you never had a reason to look.  

    I'd pressure-test that port tank.  The fittings look nasty.  
  • benvenuttiokibenvenuttioki Member Posts: 128 ✭✭
    Thanks all. Good idea about disk on hose and ice maker. 
    I do plan to have them clear rust ant replace fittings if required on port.
  • YYZRCYYZRC Member Posts: 4,896 ✭✭✭✭✭
    How are you making out @benvenuttioki ?

    2008 350 EC on Georgian Bay
  • benvenuttiokibenvenuttioki Member Posts: 128 ✭✭
    Right now we're waiting for the fabrication of a tank. Hopefully I'll have some season left by the time the boat is back in the water! I did contact Polaris to complain about the design. I eventually got to someone from Hurricane boats that handles customer service for Rinker owners. Once we got past no warranty and focused on my belief that there was a latent defect in the design, she asked for pictures and additional information for "management review." I'm not holding out much hope, though.
  • aero3113aero3113 Member Posts: 8,777 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @benvenuttioki it’s good that they asked for pictures and will review. They could’ve just threw their hands up…
    2008 330EC
  • YYZRCYYZRC Member Posts: 4,896 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thank you @benvenuttioki for pushing the topic for us Rinker owners!
    2008 350 EC on Georgian Bay
  • YYZRCYYZRC Member Posts: 4,896 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @benvenuttioki any update on your project?
    2008 350 EC on Georgian Bay
  • benvenuttiokibenvenuttioki Member Posts: 128 ✭✭
    From March to May, there's not much progress, though there is new info: 
    • I heard back from Polaris. They shipped two tanks and provided a "good will" monetary compensation. Not much cost savings, but at least we didn't have to fab new tanks.
    • The port tank surface corrosion cleaned off well. No fittings needed to be replaced. After much discussion, we agreed that the port vents couldn't be the source of the water. In looking further for leak, the tech noticed that the plywood immediately above that tank was not discolored. The deck-hull joint and any drips would be above the plywood. That's not a source. Just above the front of the tank, obscured by hoses, is a drain from the drip pan beneath the cockpit fridge and ice maker. That would certainly put water onto the tank, but I can see how a lot of salt water could get in there. No definitive leak source found.
    • Back to starboard, they looked at the plywood pulled out during tank removal. No signs of water there, either. After a rain, you can see drips from holes where roof is joined to deck and dripping down wire bundle. Not huge, but aft of plywood and onto tank. Will find and fix source, but, again, it's hard to believe that's the major source.
    • Most likely scenario... In Jun of 2021 I discovered that one of the blue drainplugs on the stbd engine failed. The T part had broken off and a forceful stream of salt water was spraying forward onto the water tank and going everywhere. I found it after I saw bilge pump running while my wife was backing into our slip and I was on swim platform. The last time I had engines running with the hatch open was when I fired her up the first time for the season in March. Could have been a problem for months. I hosed down the engine compartment to remove salt water after I fixed the plug. I'm sure I got the area of the stbd tank well. There wasn't much surface corrosion and it could have washed salt down around tank. Who the **** would have thought there was no drainage! I'm sure I didn't wash the port area as well, so that could also explain the corrosion on the top. When I told the yard about this right after the tank was pulled, they said it wasn't the problem; it had to be primarily the hull-deck joint.
    • I'm sticking w/ plan I outlined in Mar. The yard is worried about liability due to leaving potentially corroded port tank in place. Their lawyer has written a liability release and we're arguing over language. I don't mind a full release from liability, but the words have to be factually correct!
    • Nothing has been replaced as of last Fri when I was there. We were originally told Memorial Day weekend, but that seems unlikely. I was owed a new schedule yesterday. If we can put this behind us by mid-June I'll be happy. We just want the boat back so we can return to our happy place!
  • randy56randy56 Member Posts: 4,083 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is a boaters nightmare, salt water eats aluminum, as the navy discards there al cans and such overboard at sea. Fresh water can have negative affects also. As I had to replace tanks in a fresh water house boat , once owned. I went back with plastic tanks. 
    About 10 years back a friend of mine had two Al tanks start leaking, in a houseboat. He replaced his with AL, we put strips of rubber under the tanks such as a thick 1/2 inch belt material. Not the thin stuff originally installed. To raise the tank enough. to create air flow and get them higher up off the floor. We used 3 inch strips of rubber as wide as the tank, one foot apart. Just an idea. So far that gremlin has not raised it's ugly head again for him. Feeling your pain. 

    From the looks of those pictures there is a lot of water coming in there. Can you get in there and have some one hose down the boat to see where it is coming from? Make it rain. Find it hard to believe it's coming from those vents. Maybe it is. 

    Boat Name : 

  • YYZRCYYZRC Member Posts: 4,896 ✭✭✭✭✭
    From March to May, there's not much progress, though there is new info: 
    • I heard back from Polaris. They shipped two tanks and provided a "good will" monetary compensation. Not much cost savings, but at least we didn't have to fab new tanks.
    The fact that they sent new tanks is impressive. Did they charge you for the tanks?

    Thank you for the update. 
    2008 350 EC on Georgian Bay
  • benvenuttiokibenvenuttioki Member Posts: 128 ✭✭
    No charge for the tanks. 
  • benvenuttiokibenvenuttioki Member Posts: 128 ✭✭
    We've had lots of rain and only minor drips. All of possible places for significant leaks are above the plywood that sits a few inches above the tanks. There was no salt or even water stains on either port or starboard side. That really drove us back to the sprayed water from the broken drain plug.
  • YYZRCYYZRC Member Posts: 4,896 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @benvenuttioki are you boating again??
    2008 350 EC on Georgian Bay
  • benvenuttiokibenvenuttioki Member Posts: 128 ✭✭
    Nope. Memorial Day weekend became mid-July. As of my last call, the tank was in and they were starting to put the cabin back together. That was 14 July. Pointing that out got me "I'll give you a new date next week." Next week when I called... He was on vacation. I'll be traveling for the next two weeks, so mid-Aug at the earliest. <sigh>
  • YYZRCYYZRC Member Posts: 4,896 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have no words. 
    2008 350 EC on Georgian Bay
  • benvenuttiokibenvenuttioki Member Posts: 128 ✭✭
    Any further from me would be edited by the moderator!
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