Engine cuts out randomly over ~20mph - RESOLVED!!!

binduni

I have a 2002 Rinker 212 BR with the Mercruiser 5.0 MPI that we bought new. Absolutely love this boat! A few years ago it developed an issue of the engine cutting out on plane. Here is the best description I can provide:
- Will idle in gear (put put as we call it) all day long
- Once on plane (20mph or so) it may cruise for an hour or 5 minutes before cutting out. Read: it cuts out at random moments
- When I say "cut out" it's like the key was turned off
- There is NO audible alarm when this happens
- The good news is it restarts every time very easily. Shift to neutral, turn off key, and restart
- I have had a shop spend hours on this with no solution

Has anyone experienced this? And if so, has anyone been able to fix it??

Thanks for the help!

PickleRick

Ok...i love a challenge.   Any fault codes?   Doesnt mpi have coil packs? Have you replaced them?   Have you checked fuel pressure?  Im thinking 55psi is the magic number for mpi but i could be mistaken.  If no faults id like to know if the fuel pressure drops when the issue happens.  No idea how your fuel tank is set up but when i have an intermittent cut off issue i check fuel rank first. If she has a tube pick up and not a sock a dead bee can cause a random cut off situation and never set off a cel.   Once cut off bee floats away until its picked up again.  


You're welcome to substitute bee for any other insects or trash that could be found in a fuel tank.  In a lawn equipment shop i see lots of insects in fuel tanks from gas cans

binduni

Thanks for the fast reply! Yep, this is a challenge for sure.

Fault codes.... well, the shop I brought it to said "no fault codes" but not sure they even scanned it. I don't have a scan tool but am thinking it would be worthwhile to spend the $500 (I restore classic cars and am a firm believer in the right tool for the job!)
I don't think this has coil packs but I'll check. If it doesn't, I never thought of a faulty coil! Could be....
I've thought the same thing about the fuel pressure, but the shop said "it was fine" with no details. Have I mentioned I won't use that shop anymore? Thinking a scan tool will report if there was a low/high pressure issue.
And I had the same thought about a piece of crud in the fuel tank - had this issue on a car. It's a 40 gallon tank though and will require a lot of pump out or use before I can pull the tank to check.

Also investigating a ground or short issue near the tach. Forgot to mention the tach goes flaky once in a while but we have not been able to connect it reading strangely to a cut out occurrence.

Thanks again the ideas! Keep em coming....

Ian

Faria gauges are known to be flaky so unless you establish a pattern what you see is likely unrelated.

When on plane are you smooth cruising or some bumps/chop? Thinking loose connection maybe, does it have a safety cutoff like some do (I think for Canada). Bayliner had one as did boat another I helped someone with and while not needed here it was faulty. 

PickleRick

Unless the tack only goes wonky when it acts up its probably not related.  

Im not sure in your case you can read fuel pressures via ecu? There may be a provision in the fuel rail where you can install a fuel pressure gauge?  If so autozone or other car place probably has a rental gauge. 

Im more carb oriented than efi, i just try to apply my diagnostics to the efi systems.

As icoultha says it cold be a short.  Ive seen a shop throw hours of diagnosis on a 4.3 vortec just for me to get lucky and find a leaky heater core hose spraying onto the dizzy at normal running temps, shorting the ignition module.  


Ive also seen bad corrosion at coil wires.  A good visual could go a long way, cleaning and checking any electrical connection along the way. 

binduni

So, out today for a few hours with little change to report - spent a few hours idling in gear with no problem. As soon as the boat is accelerated to plane, it cuts out. I'm leaning more toward crap in the fuel tank plugging the inlet, but need to remove 35ish gallons of gas to check - unless someone has an easy way to bypass the inlet tube. 
I do have a few electrical gremlins that I believe are unrelated - 12v power socket doesn't work, and the tach still reads wonky. Oil pressure is good @ 40-50 lbs, temp steady @ 140ish. Like I mentioned before, it will start right up after cutting out. 
I'm also wondering if the emergency cutoff switch would go bad? Can test next I;'m out.

Michael T

You have electrical continuity? No ground shorts/restrictions?

PickleRick

You can run a small portable outboard fuel tank 6 gallon or so on the deck so long as the fuel pump is external the fuel tank. 

PickleRick

Just hit me, when on plane your fuel will slosh to the back, have you checked your vent hose?  It could vapor lock. The more fuel you have in the tank the qucker it will act up.

With boat on incline hill bow up like plane position carefully remove fuel fill cap then blow in fuel tank.  You or a helper should feel air move out vent.

Vent tubes should gently slant all the way up to the vent.  Screens should be in vent outlet but bugs will nest in any little opening they can get in.

binduni

@Michael T At rest there are no electrical issue like shorts or missing grounds. The trouble is, this issue only happens when on plane. I watched the gauges with my wife driving and there was no pre-indication of an issue before engine cut out.

@PickleRick I like what you're proposing! I have not traced the vent lines, and honestly don't even know where the vent outlet is. I believe both fuel pumps are external to the tank and could kill both theories (plugged vent / debri in the tank) with an external tank.

It'll be a few weeks before I can test but will report back my findings. If anyone has pics of the vent lines, that would help me a lot.

Thanks all!

PickleRick

Think of the vent line like a bunny ski slope. A gentle slope of probably 3/4 inch hose from your tank up to the rear transom area. No dips or valleys allowed or you can have venting issues.  

At times venting issues can be seen during fuel ups as the fuel fill hose will keep burping and takes forever to fill up.

Stodge

What about the fuel/water separator?  Could there be enough water in it to only be a problem when the boat angle changes?

binduni

@Stodge When I had the boat in the shop last year for this issue, they began with a complete tune up, including changing the fuel/water separator. No change in resolution. Thanks for the thought though! 

cettialpha6

Before I got my 246BR , I had a 212BR. (2005). My neighbor has a 212 also and he had a similar problem of "cutting out" . I was able to mimic the problem out on the lake by pulling the rip chord while underway. Boat would shutdown, then we reset switch, turned key off, then on and it would startup. Don't know if this would show up in the codes to troubleshoot. The problem with the safety switch (one the rip chord is attached to) was it was not making good contact and cut off engine intermittently.(my guess) I didn't like the idea of jumpering it out so we did a R/R with the safety switch and neutral micro switch. Problem disappeared. Its a fairly simple check and cheap and doesn't take long. Not saying this is it but its worth a try.
good luck
Art

F1100

It sounds like a failing coil. When they are near end of life and heat up they can cut out and start to fail. Then when cooled can work a bit. Check the engine coil, and or replace.

binduni

@F1100 I had that thought as well - would anyone know what the resistance of a good coil should be? I've searched and cannot find this info. 

binduni

@cettialpha6 I re-read your post and caught something the second time through - "neutral micro switch". What is and where is that?? Part of the safety switch?

binduni

To everyone who's responded - thank you! I have a good list of things to test thanks to you all! Here's what I have to check so far:

1. Bad coil

2. Plugged fuel vent line

3. Plugged fuel pickup line

4. Loose electrical connection

5. Fuel pump(s) failing

6. Intermittent safety switch

binduni

Thought of one more possibility: failing relay. Had this issue on a classic car once too....

Also, I found the coil specs in case anyone was interested:

Description Specification

Coil Part Number 392-863704

Primary Resistance 0.60 - 0.80 Ohms

Secondary Resistance 9,400-11,700 Ohms

rasbury

our boat was behaving this way when we first bought it. We have a failing starter and I guess it was losing ground and wood cut out. Sorry for the voice text spelling

PickleRick

If you're going to check the coil resistance have a heat gun handy as many times the coil will test within spec until warm then when heat soaked will lose spark or miss fire/short out.  Test coil then set in vice and heat it up and test again.  Im not sure if there is a difference in a marine or automotive coil like there is marine vs auto starter and alternator so its possible you can use a local auto parts store for a coil.  Things like coils, starters and alternators are items i consider keep on the shelf items for boating enthusiasts.  By enthusiast i mean people who boat every weekend and turn their own wrenches.  Most of those items are a 1 to 3 beer level replacement item meaning it takes 1 to 3 beers consumption time to diagnose and replace any of those items and get back on the water.

PickleRick

rasbury said:

our boat was behaving this way when we first bought it. We have a failing starter and I guess it was losing ground and wood cut out. Sorry for the voice text spelling

Did your boat have only one ground wire from batteries to starter?  I prefer multiple points of grounds, at least one to the block and one to heads but usually when i go as far to rewire something its during an engine swap.  

Any time i get ahold of a an old set of jumper cables with busted clamps i think to myself yay extra grounds

binduni

@PickleRick Yep, good point on heating up the coil! I do that as general practice for a good test. I was a bit shocked with the price of this coil - $300! Shouldn't be surprised, but 10x over an automotive coil seems excessive. It is for electronic ignition though, so I guess it's "worth it". 

212rowboat

a bad coil generally won't fire right back up... the issue is they internally crack, and when they get hot and expand (even though they are tightly bound much like a plate padlock) they lose energy, or more specifically the energy delays ever so slightly.  they have to cool to a degree they will behave normally again. 

you say "on plane" could be five minutes, could be an hour... 

i wager your outdrive needs to be aligned, along with a new gimbal bearing.  

try this:  take it up to plane speeds, but 'plow'- keep the leg deep, or only trim 'slightly'.  do NOT trim it out as you normally would.  

think of it like a lawn mower... or a torque converter at stall speeds and not being able to release... the engine dies due to resistance it can't overcome.  it's that simple.  

the 'trim' trick ought to tell you something.  

PickleRick

Good call on the gimball/alignment. I had a vovlo penta 290/aq210 set up (305 chevy) which collapsed an engine mount stinger due to rot. The binding wouldnt let her plane.  

For my mercury i use an old bar bell bar for initial alignment (1 inch, an old broom handle works) and then a cheap eBay 45 dollar alignment tool for final alignment.  Works every well, just make sure your have it all the way pressed when checking alignment. 

binduni

@212rowboat (love the handle) that's an interesting thought, and one I'll check. It doesn't seem to bog down then die though, just cuts out while up on full plane. And I find it hard to believe a 260hp V8 can't overcome some binding.... but again will definitely check it out!

212rowboat

I speak from experience, and there is no bog... Just a complete stoppage as if someone flipped the kill switch.  I noticed mine early, and it happened when I trimmed up on plane... As if it just locked. It was so abrupt I cringed thinking i'd thrown a rod or something. 

I could duplicate it easily after I pegged it,  and simply stayed out of that trim range heading back to dock... A pull of out drive, a quick alignment, a swap of gimbal bearing, reinstall of outdrive (perhaps an hour total) and never saw it again.  

rasbury

Wow....how would have thought..

binduni

Thanks @212rowboat - I will check this out! I had "the shop" re-attached the exhaust bellows a couple of years ago - about the same time this issue showed up. They said they checked the gimbal for condition and alignment. 
I have the skills to do this but have never it (pull of out drive, a quick alignment, a swap of gimbal bearing, reinstall of outdrive ) - any special tools I need or tips to offer?

PickleRick

Special tools = alignment bar. Can be had cheap on eBay.

A slide hammer with slide ring for removing gimball bearing if needed. Slide ring can be made with flat washers and nut, google home made gimball removal tool and you'll see what others made pics and video. Slide hammer can be rented from autoparts store.

If massively out of alignment in depth analysis needs to go into as to why, rotten core, collapesed rear mounts, bad front mounts, rare but possible bad coupler

For removing and reinstalling drive i can do it solo with aid of engine hoist.  2 decent strength people can do it by hand @100 lbs. My dad and i have removed them together by hand. This summer both of us had to reinstall solo at different times he used a chain fall on a frame i used engine hoist.  Chainfall wouldn't have worked for me because of swim platform.

ive also made cradles out of piano dollys and 2x4 so i literally rolled the outdrive off then back on but these were heavier volvo penta outdrives.  Working trailer jack allowed perfect alignment. Also worked well for storage.  Piano dolly from harbor freight is 12 bucks and a couple 2x4s and screws. Just need a solid surface to roll

There are some good youtube videos on alpha outdrive removals


Have. Seal kit on hand @ 12 bucks for new seal o ring and gaskets, your gasket will tear.

I use a little dab of black rtv to hold gasket seal and o ring in place during install.

Also good time to do baffles, water pump hose and impeller as well as foot oil. Season is almost over she'll be ready for next season.

Its easy to list all this when it's someone elses money.

212rowboat

the good news is if this is your issue, it's almost certainly a bad gimbal bearing.... 

how do i know that?  because it runs in all but 'full trim'.  the bind on the shaft is significant at that point... 

also... just so you know, because it's not plainly evident... : 

your trim has a 'trailer mode' you must not go above while the engine is running... the switch on the shifter has two positions 'up'... one is half depressed and the drive lifts, the other is full depress and the drive lifts beyond it's limits... 

i mention this because if you are unaware of that, you could simply be lifting too high.