Gas caddies

Willhound

Hmm. Interesting. Most of our duel docks actually require blower on while refuelling or they won't turn the pump on. Ignition off, blower on and no one allowed on tbe boat.
And pump only run by gas dock staff. Captain not allowed to operate the pump as the dock operator is hugely responsible for any spills.

PickleRick

The only place i fuel on the water is the keys and they make the boaters fuel their own boat.  The attendant stands there to turn off the pump if needed.  They say nothing about the crew on the boat.    

Its fun watching all the newbie boaters try to dock in the currents.  

Ian

At our boaT club we fuel ourselves. 

The USCGA boater safety course says no blower for reasons I mentioned above. 

LaRea

Willhound, do they give a reason for requiring blowers on during fueling?  

The state of Maryland recommends that during fueling, "All open flames and galley stoves shall be extinguished; engines, motors, fans, and bilge blowers shall be shut down; and all ports, windows, doors and hatches shall be closed."

Willhound

The only reason I've been given is that it prevents someone from "forgetting" to turn it on once back on board. It varies by location, can't find a reg on it anywhere. It seems it's just a few particular very busy locations I visit, by the time hose is wrapped up, payment, everyone back on board and settled it's been long enough to fire up and leave. Saves a lot of tempers. On the other hand, I've had docks ask me to turn everything off including the main battery switch before re-fuelling. So now I just ask.

earl1z19

This topic always gets a ton of discussion but never resolution. Lets say you shut the blower off while re-fueling and need to open the hatch for a sniff test before starting the blower. The hatch lift is typically electric on most boats so that electric is an ignition source and that creates a problem in itself if there are fumes in the engine compartment. If the blower is off and you turn it on after fueling that creates an ignition issue similar to the above. Most blower intakes are not near the fueling area so if you leave the blower on it will keep the air circulation going thus mitigating any potential fumes in the bilge area with fresh air. The fumes are heavier  than air so they sink. My air intake is located away from the fuel filler and on a higher level the the filler. Oh and when you turn the blower on the best time for it to generate a spark is as the motor brushes begin spinning the impeller. I know these motors are marine rated for their specific duty but there is always the possibility. I have my set procedure but now I am beginning to question the process.

randy56

We had a new boater, getting his first tank of gas filled his water holding tank. Left the dock, and noticed he was still low on gas. The guy was over 60 years old a very successful business man. No common sense.  Hummmm...

andyd

Filling the wrong tank is dumb, but how about filling the bilge through a rod holder? It has happened. No, not me.

Andy

Cableguy Greg

A friend of mine filled his waste tank on his 270. The fuel fill on his is very close to the waste pump out.

LaRea

I defy anyone to find any authoritative source that recommends running blowers while pumping gas into a boat.  If a fuel dock attendant told me to do it, I would not comply.  

Ian

I’m with @LaRea.

@earl1z19 I see your point but still think it’s safer not to encourage sucking on fumes. On ours the fillers are at the stern and a little lower than the intakes but if I fill at the gas dock at our club and there a slight NE breeze it hits the stern and could flow fumes up and forward across the intakes.

With all that said there is always the possibility of something happening. Key is to prevent as much as possible. 

randy56

Refueling check list 

1. Secure boat to the dock.

2. Shut off the engine(s). 

3. Remove all passengers from the boat.

4. Locate your fire extinguisher and make sure it’s operable and accessible

5. Put out any open flames (no smoking and make sure the BBQ grill on the rail are cold).

6. Don’t use electrical switches while fueling. Some people feel you should shut off the stereo and other electrical devices.

7. Determine and use the proper type of fuel.

8. Be certain you are putting fuel in fuel tank (not the holding or fresh water or even the rod holder)

9. Always fuel slowly and don’t overfill.

10. If you have a blower, turn it on at least for four minutes (some people think that’s too long but that’s the recommended time). Some people like to open the engine compartment to release any fumes.

11. Do the sniff test and see if you smell fumes.

12. DO NOT start engine(s) until all fumes are gone.

IMO I would think that if you wanted the blower on when fueling the engine hatch should be at least slightly open, How else are you to sniff.  And  long before fueling. not after you start fueling.  as  the hose to the blower should be low in the bulge as fumes sink to the lowest level to suck out fumes, Immediately not after they have had a chance to build up in the compartment.   Every summer we hear of boat explosion's at the dock . 

LaRea

Remember, fuel vapor is heavier than air, so any fumes would be at the bottom of the engine room.  

Opening the engine hatch does not release fumes.  Unless it's really windy, fumes would stay at the bottom of the ER.  

Opening the engine hatch does not provide a reliable sniff test, unless you climb down into the ER.  The most reliable way to do a sniff test is to put your nose at the blower outlet, so you are sniffing air that the blower pulls up from the bottom of the ER.  I do this every time I start the engines.  

I agree it's best to turn off all electric devices.  I make one exception: I leave my VesselView engine monitor on.  That way, I can watch the tank levels and avoid spills from overfilling.  To me, that benefit outweighs the small risk of leaving the electronics powered up.  

earl1z19

This is a good discussion. I typically leave my blower going during refuel but probably will change that procedure after reading these posts.

Liberty44140

J3ff said:

Liberty44140 said:

A friend of mine has 11 or 12 five gallon plastic gasoline cans. Many many years ago I borrowed them, filled all of them at a local pump, and put them in my suv and drove 10 miles on the highway to the yard where my first Rinker, a 310, sat on the hard. Half way to the marina I looked at the admiral and said “i am very sorry, I just realized we are a bomb, this was incredibly stupid”. she agreed and not much else was said. Never ever did that again. 5 gallons for the lawn mower and that’s it. One of the dumbest things I’ve ever done, completely thoughtless, we were very lucky. 

Why is this any different than the countless people who fill up gas cans and put them in the trunk? Key is to make sure they are sealed and you're good right? 

My regret had more to do with the volume. 55-60 gal of gasoline was 3x the fuel tank of the Jeep. If we had flipped the Jeep that would have been the end. 

Liberty44140

We keep the blowers off while actually pumping so we don’t suck in the vapors that’s come out while fueling, them turn the blower on after fueling while I pay the tab. Never thought about opening the hatch, interesting. I’ve always struggled with keeping the blowers on or off while idling or on plane, I usually just leave em on...sometimes off once we are out on the lake. 

randy56

You could always sit on the genny with a grill lighter to check for fumes?????

randy56

Engine Room Blowers And Their Hoses

A purpose-built marine-engine room blower is ignition-protected and therefore safe, but this can still be a problem area. Have you ever inspected your blower duct hose going into the bilge? These deteriorate over time. Eventually they'll look like Swiss cheese, which means they're no longer capable of removing dangerous fumes from the bilge. Replace them if they have any cuts or breaks. Blower hoses should extend to the lower 1/3 of the engine room. (Gasoline vapors are heavier than air and will sink to the lower part of the bilge.) Sufficiently running the blower (about four to five minutes) before starting the engine should evacuate any fumes that might have developed. Note that a bilge blower will not rid the compartment of spilled fuel, which will continue to emit vapors. As an added safety feature, a marine vapor detector should be installed in the engine room. These have indicators, generally on the helm station, that will alert you of any vapors. The detectors have a limited lifespan; usually after five years the manufacturer says they must be replaced.

randy56

Fuel Leaks

Unless you've been hiding under a rock, you probably know that during last several years, ethanol has been added to gasoline. This can degrade older fuel lines much faster then anticipated. Even newer hoses don't have quite the same lifespan. Degraded fuel lines get brittle and will eventually leak — and a leaking fuel line is a disaster waiting to happen. If your hoses are more then ten years old (proper USCG-approved hoses are date-stamped when they were made), bend them, squeeze them, and see if they move or rotate on the fuel fittings. If so, they're loose enough to leak. Sometimes fuel hoses are accidentally stepped on and damaged during routine engine maintenance. Run your hand along the hose or use a clean white rag and see if you smell gasoline (or worse, see it). If so, replace the hose using approved fuel line. While there are different types for different purposes on a boat, I recommend using only USCG-approved A1-15 hose. This hose has passed rigorous testing and can withstand a 2.5-minute burn test, which is designed to be enough time to put out a fire or abandon ship before the hose begins leaking. Most fuel-line manufacturers suggest that their fuel lines should replaced every 10 to 15 years even if there are no indications of leaks or damage. Proper fuel-lines are marked as shown, below.

Old hose gets brittle over time and tends to crack — and leak.

Use only USCG-approved fuel hose; the approval must be marked on the hose. Type A1-15 is the most durable.

Other places gasoline can leak are where hoses connect to other fittings. Fuel-fill spuds, fuel-tank lines and gas-tank gaskets, as well as carburetor and fuel-pump fittings can leak. Use the clean dry-rag method for these areas too.

Preventing Ignition

Gas fumes by themselves are relatively harmless. But the slightest spark can ignite the fumes with great power, enough to blow the deck off of a large boat or throw crew in the water. The other side of preventing explosions is to have no way to ignite gas fumes that may have built up. Any starters, alternators, or pumps — or any other electrical equipment — in your engine room or generator compartment must state that they are "Ignition Protected." Ignition protection is a standard that makes a product, such as a starter or alternator, safe to be installed in an environment that could become explosive. It means it won't spark, which is all that gas fumes need to ignite. Don't listen to the kid at the auto parts store who says auto and marine parts are all the same — they're not. It costs more to make marine ignition-protected parts, but they may just save your life. If you have any reservations about whether something is ignition protected, replace it.

How do you know if something is ignition-protected and safe for gas engine spaces? It must be marked like this.

Some pumps that you might consider safe because they're installed on your boat are not necessarily ignition protected. Electric raw water pumps, for example, as well as some pumps used for pumping the bilge may not be ignition-protected. A previous owner could have installed a non-ignition-protected pump that could spark on startup. So check that all electrical parts that go on a gasoline engine (or in a gasoline engine space) have a label that says "Ignition Protected." Note: even power tools used in a gasoline engine space can cause a spark sufficient to cause an explosion! Don't take chance.

Fueling Your Boat

When fueling, the electrical system on the vessel must be shut down. (Turn off battery switches.) All engines, including the generator, must be off. Close all hatches to prevent fumes from coming below. Remove all passengers. Make sure that the fuel-fill nozzle is in the fuel fill and not a rod holder or freshwater fill. Yep, that has happened many times. Before starting the engines, open hatches, and turn on the blower. After running it for four to five minutes, use your nose, and smell the bilge. If you smell gasoline, get off the boat and alert the dockmaster. If you find spilled gas in the bilge, call 911, and let the professionals deal with it. One more thing: Know where your fuel shutoffs are, and verify that they operate properly. Label them if necessary — some people even mark the location inside the boat so the crew or passengers easily see it.

Propane (LPG)

Many vessels today use propane cooking appliances. As builders have taken great pains over the years to make proper installations, explosions from them are fortunately rare. But especially on older boats, they still need regular inspections. Make sure that propane tanks are mounted in a compartment with a vent at the bottom to allow any propane that might leak from the tanks to go overboard. Shutoffs in the compartment can seize, and my experience with these tanks and valves is that they are rarely opened and closed; many are simply left open for convenience. Exercise them regularly, and close them when not in use. Consider this for a moment: I once saw a speaker installed with bare wires in the same compartment as the tanks. Don't make this kind of dangerous mistake — nothing that could possibly make a spark can share space with a propane tank. Also, there should always be an electrical shutoff in the galley near the stove that closes a solenoid on the tank. You don't want to have to clamber out of the galley to shut off the fuel supply in case there is a problem.

One of my pet peeves is that the hose or piping from the tank to the stove is sometimes not accessible and often hidden behind cabinets. The hose behind the stove also usually has limited access — you may have to dig a little to properly check the hoses. Inspect as much hose as possible, looking for cracks. You can use a leak-detection fluid (available a

I Have Nothing To Worry About. I Have A Diesel Engine

Really? Well the explosive nature of diesel is certainly not like gasoline, but during a recent claim I handled, the starter on a small sailboat diesel engine hung up when the engine was started and became red hot. Just above the starter was a non-approved automotive fuelfeed line to the engine. It melted and sprayed diesel fuel onto the hot starter, causing a fire. While it wasn't an explosion, it could have been devastating. Fortunately the owner had a fixed fire extinguishing system in the engine compartment that put out the fire. Over the years, I've seen gasoline cans for the dinghy's outboard and small propane canisters stored in a diesel engine room. Remember, parts in a diesel engine room don't have to be ignition-protected as they need to be in a gasoline engine room (and probably aren't), so nothing explosive (gasoline, propane, flammable solvents, etc.) should be kept in a diesel engine room.

 

PickleRick

Most of us have aluminum fuel tanks, these have an average life of 10 to 20 years.

Not a bad idea to have these pressure tested before each season once they hit the 10 yr mark.

You can have a leak before you see fuel gathering in your bilge as gas will evaporate quickly but the fumes are still potentially explosive.  

The generally corrode where they make contact with something.

Not an issue any of us like to think about because of the work involved to replace it but should be taken very seriously.

Ian

I think cracking the hatch may be less effective than thought. The blower sucks in fresh air from outside and the duct dumps to the bottom, pressure increase in ER causes venting. With hatch cracked there is more of a tendency to vent into the cockpit versus over the side as is desired.  I realize the hatch isn’t air tight and you’ll get some seepage anyway but it will vent easier out a four inch pathway. 

LaRea

That's backwards.  The blower pulls air from the bottom and exhausts it directly out the vent, which draws fresh air in from openings at the top.  

LaRea

When you sniff the exhaust from the blower, the air is coming directly from the bottom of the ER.

Ian

Yeah, I screwed that up. Teach me for writing that up between flights from Chile this morning. 

Stodge

I started poking around on the subject of blowers.  There are many references to how much air must be moved by a blower, but I have not been able to find anything on when to operate them.  I'll see if I can find some material from our boating safety class on the subject.  

I was taught to close everything up, and power everything off for fueling, then open everything up, sniff and run blowers for 4 minutes after fueling is completed before starting engines.

I'll continue to see if I can find that published by the CG anywhere.

PickleRick

To me it would make sense to turn off all electronics, fill up then turn on blower just like you do before any engine start.  When towing i try to open or crack the hatch, i feel like the bouncing on a trailer could flood a carb before it spring a leak fueling.  

If you really want to get ocd you can buy a gas sniffer sensor to mount in your bilge, an alarm will sound if there are fumes.  

LaRea

Ditto.  I found many authoritative sources that specify running blowers AFTER fueling, but are mute on whether to run them WHILE fueling.  I did not find anything official that definitively says do, or don't, run them while fueling.  Strange, no?

Stodge

LaRea said:

Ditto.  I found many authoritative sources that specify running blowers AFTER fueling, but are mute on whether to run them WHILE fueling.  I did not find anything official that definitively says do, or don't, run them while fueling.  Strange, no?

Since the objective is to remove gas fumes before starting the engine it might make sense on the surface but not sure how I'd feel about having something electric operating during fueling.  I guess it doesn't make a difference.  

I'm still only running mine after the gas pump stops.

randy56

I was hoping and waiting for @Stodge to chime in. I could not find anything from CG either. Since he is our resident CG rep. 

Stodge

Thanks for the vote of confidence @randy56.  And I'm more than happy to share anything I can find from the CG regarding boater safety and the vessel exam program.

This one has me buffaloed.  I've actually sent a question up the chain to see if there as policy or if the policy is "do what the manufacturers say". 

The last time I chased something like this was for the electronic flares.  The regulation existed but the product did not.  

If I hear anything I'll share.