Lithium Batteries

Willhound

I couldn't afford AGM, I can only imagine what these cost. 11 year warranty, I wish the cell phone companies took note. Of course, then they couldn't sell you a new phone every 3 or 4 years. 
https://www.canadianyachting.ca/products/electrical/6102-total-battery-dakota-batteries

Aqua_Aura

They are a bit pricey although I think these are Canadian prices so maybe 20-30 percent less US price? About 3 time AGM for same AH however if they last that much longer then it does offset especially if you know you will keep your boat. 

Ian

Add to that additional needs for runaway containment. Major mods in the B787 after a few incidents. And they don’t use these “cheap” types in a 787.

This would be the last thing I’d like in my engine bay if I could afford them.

Willhound

That was my first thought, in the event of a leak, Lithium reacts with water to form hydrogen gas. Wonder of ABYC or any other organization has thoughts?

LaRea

If they really do last five times longer than AGMs, the cost would make sense.  But I'll wait until we see a few years of fleet data in general recreational boating.  

Handymans342

We use Battle Born batteries in the RV/Solar field. Have held up well from all I have read

YYZRC

@Handymans342 off topic but where does one find light fixtures for RVs that aren’t hideous? I’m trying to find something halfway appealing to replace the fluorescent light in the head. 

benvenuttioki

on another forum, a poster commented that every potential insurer he had contacted asked whether his boat used Li-based batteries. It didn’t, so he was unsure how it might effect coverage. Posted for others to be aware.

MarkB

Willhound said:

That was my first thought, in the event of a leak, Lithium reacts with water to form hydrogen gas. Wonder of ABYC or any other organization has thoughts?

Lead batteries make hydrogen when they are charged.  Let's not start castrating Li batteries on a blog ... death by social media.

Aqua_Aura

I think the bigger problem is the thermal runaway which I forgot about till the 787 comment. Although we transport 100s of lithium batteries each flight with all the laptops and phones we have on board and many of them are plugged in charging with no runaway yet. 

Willhound

MarkB said:

Willhound said:

That was my first thought, in the event of a leak, Lithium reacts with water to form hydrogen gas. Wonder of ABYC or any other organization has thoughts?

Lead batteries make hydrogen when they are charged.  Let's not start castrating Li batteries on a blog ... death by social media.

Agree. Was just more sort of wondering as I'm not up on Lithium batteries in this large format.

Handymans342

YYZRC said:

@Handymans342 off topic but where does one find light fixtures for RVs that aren’t hideous? I’m trying to find something halfway appealing to replace the fluorescent light in the head. 

Camping world.com

Ian

The issue isn’t the hydrogen, its thermal runaway as I mentioned above. Once started it is self generating and propagating with extremely high temperatures. Like @aero3113 said they carry them on flights an there have been some issues and while one catching align on a flight is a bad thing and can be catastrophic in a rare case it is contained or limiting somewhat. You put a few large ones together without separation protection it’ll burn through the bottom of your hull before you know it. @MarkB it’s no fallacy - it’s real, just one non social media hyped p story https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-lithium-ion-batteries-grounded-the-dreamliner/

MarkB

icoultha said:

The issue isn’t the hydrogen, its thermal runaway as I mentioned above. Once started it is self generating and propagating with extremely high temperatures. Like @aero3113 said they carry them on flights an there have been some issues and while one catching align on a flight is a bad thing and can be catastrophic in a rare case it is contained or limiting somewhat. You put a few large ones together without separation protection it’ll burn through the bottom of your hull before you know it. @MarkB it’s no fallacy - it’s real, just one non social media hyped p story https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-lithium-ion-batteries-grounded-the-dreamliner/

I understand there are risks ... like with everything. Li batteries are taking over the world. 70% of the battery market is projected ... they are just better at almost everything. If the risk is known, then a risk-mitigation solution can be found ... 

LaRea

Panbo has a good article about Ben Stein replacing his house bank with lithium iron phosphate batteries.  Ben feels that LiFePO4 is the safest of today's lithium chemistries. 

For his large motoryacht, the two house batteries cost $5700 ... EACH. The total system cost was $17k, and that's the DIY price!  So although it's not directly relevant to us little-boaters, it's an interesting read.

As @MarkB said, lithium is taking over the battery world.  

https://panbo.com/upgrading-our-house-battery-system-part-2-life-is-better-with-lithium/ 

Black_Diamond

Lithium makes sense for high power needs at a long rate...EV cars, power tools, etc.  In your standard boat just not worth the cost and trouble.  I looked at a 45’ Cantius with a massive battery bank and inverter to run a weekend without running the genny. Makes more sense for that...cost is just a deal breaker. 

Willhound

Powerboat Television had a story this weekend on the Ranger R27 that mentioned that it came with a bank of 4 AGM's but could be upgraded to Lithium and an inverter to run the onboard air and heat without a Genny. Also a tug design that will run on plane up to almost 40mph with a 300 hp Yamaha for all you outboard haters.  

oscar1

do you need to upgrade your  engine's alternator 

Black_Diamond

Generally you will need high voltage AC to recharge those big lithium battery banks. Unless you want to run your engine for days. lol.  

LaRea

Lots of good and bad points.  A Li bank is smaller and lighter, and it charges faster so you don't need to run the genny as long.  And because it's an integrated system, you get better visibility about battery health and state of charge. 

But the system components (which are required) cost a lot, and most people don't need that sort of capacity.  I mean, suppose you could run the microwave and maybe even HVAC from batteries instead of the generator.  Sure, that's a nice luxury, but is it worth the cost?

Also, Li batteries don't like heat, so I don't think you can put them in the engine room.  

To me, it's still a luxury item or special-purpose system.  

Handymans342

LaRea said:

Lots of good and bad points.  A Li bank is smaller and lighter, and it charges faster so you don't need to run the genny as long.  And because it's an integrated system, you get better visibility about battery health and state of charge. 

But the system components (which are required) cost a lot, and most people don't need that sort of capacity.  I mean, suppose you could run the microwave and maybe even HVAC from batteries instead of the generator.  Sure, that's a nice luxury, but is it worth the cost?

Also, Li batteries don't like heat, so I don't think you can put them in the engine room.  

To me, it's still a luxury item or special-purpose system.  

They don’t like cold either

Ian

I don’t like thermal runaway and the means to contain it is not simple nor inexpensive.

Handymans342

RV guys have done a lot of cool things with lithium and solar. Eat your heart out @LaRea

Liberty44140

Whoa is that the handy mobile? Quite a set up 

Handymans342

It could be one day Lib and we may need it with all the hacking going around