Victron Lithium House Bank

YYZRC

I currently have 3 AGM Group 31s that are toast. They are about 5 years old so not unexpected.

Has anyone switched to a lithium house bank? If so, what are you running for batteries/charging?

kordo

Thinking about it but apparently I would need a second battery charger and other complicated stuff.  I'm waiting for a straight drop in solution.  My charger will allow me to setup a custom charging profile which I would set somewhere between flooded and lithium.  At least that is my thinking at this point in time.  I don't know enough about it.  

oscar1

Me too, I am being thinking about it, but it is a little complicate it. I really would like to remove my heavy AGM battery out of my engineroom, it is too much weight for only 50% of available energy. I believe lithium will be the future for the next generation power cruiser. 

Aqua_Aura

Have you considered using 6v batteries in series? 

You get more useable power over just using a 12v battery. Might be an option for now until you want to make a jump to lithium in the future. 

YYZRC

@Aqua_Aura 6v require a lot of space which I don’t really have and also add a lot of weight. Definitely the most cost effective route to go. 

@kordo you could use your existing charger with the Victron Smart BMS 12/200. But that requires you to use the Victron lithium battery. Alternately you could do a DC:DC charger. 

oscar1

A lithium 59 pounds battery = 200 amp battery woow

kordo

YYZRC, interesting.  I'm going to seriously think about it.  The cost of the charger is less than I thought.  Thanks.

YYZRC

@kordo what do you have for a house bank now?

YYZRC

oscar1 said:

A lithium 59 pounds battery = 200 amp battery woow

And the 100ah Group 31 AGM I have now are 63lb each! 190 lbs of ancient tech on my port side

kordo

I only have 2 grp 31 agm's for my house bank.  Question, what do you do with the battery isolator when you add the lithium batteries?  I assume you have to disconnect them.  

YYZRC

Victron makes a BMS that can charge the lithium from the alternator. You could use this if you still want to be able to charge the house bank with the alternator(s). 

https://www.victronenergy.com/battery-management-systems/smart-bms-12-200

If you don’t go with a Victron setup, you could use a DC:DC charger from the isolator to the battery. 

I reached out to MSI to get his opinion on the best setup. https://marinesolar.com/ - this is where I got my inverter setup from. 

kordo

Good info, do you have a diagram or anything specific to your setup from marinesolar.com?  Thanks.

YYZRC

My inverter setup is separate from the house system entirely. I have the following:

Victron Multiplus II 12-3000 inverter/charger
Victron 200ah Lithium battery
Victron BMS
Victron Smart Shunt

I disabled/removed the starboard shore power inlets and used that breaker for the inverter setup. I originally installed the inverter in the cabinet below the breaker panel (where the central vac was located) but moved it to the bow for better weight distribution. 

YYZRC

I also installed an automatic transfer switch so that the generator can power the inverter/charger. If I could do it again, I would buy the Quattro instead of the Multiplus II as it would interface with the generator seamlessly (no ATS required). Oh well.  

kordo

Looks good, a little more complicated than I want.  We're only keeping our boat another year or two.  Thanks.

kordo

YYZRC, a few more question.  What about dropping in 2 100ah lithium batteries to replace my 2 grp 31 agm house batteries.  I would connect a dc to dc charger to one of the dc outputs of my  pronautic 3 stage charger and the other end to my lithium batteries.  I would leave my battery isolator alone so that I could still charge my lithium batteries using my engine alternators.  Does this make sense?  I'm looking for the simplest least expensive way to increase my house bank capacity.  Also, are lithium batteries ok to use for a windlass?  I understand they are not good for starting engines and the windlass would demand a lot of amps but not as much as starting engines.  Thanks.

YYZRC

@kordo you can’t connect the isolator directly to the lithium or it will kill your alternator. 

From what I have read, lithium is good for everything except bow thrusters. In the case of bow thrusters, I have read that the issue is that the thruster motor expects only about 10.5v continuous because that’s what a lead acid battery puts out under load. A lithium can sustain 12v+ under load which can melt the motor. 

For starting batteries, lithium doesn’t make sense because of the cost differential but otherwise performs well. 

oscar1

Kordo, 
you will need to move the lithium battery out the engine bay, because lithium battery doesn't like too cold or too much heat during charging process.

LaRea

For anybody considering a lithium battery conversion, this article might make you reconsider:

https://gilwellbear.wordpress.com/2023/02/01/lithium-ion-batteries-on-boats-1q23-update/

The author is a well-known authority on boat electrical systems.  It's a long technical article that discusses system design, wiring, cost, insurability, and a lot more.  He strongly cautions against the idea of just "dropping in" a set of lithium batteries.  

His bottom line is:  "For those WITHOUT advanced electrical technical skills, then my advice is, wait another 3 – 5 years while this stuff works itself out via new and updated standards, new standards-compliant equipment and new system designs. Why? Because the current environment does have the ability to disappoint."

YYZRC

LaRea said:

For anybody considering a lithium battery conversion, this article might make you reconsider:

https://gilwellbear.wordpress.com/2023/02/01/lithium-ion-batteries-on-boats-1q23-update/

The author is a well-known authority on boat electrical systems.  It's a long technical article that discusses system design, wiring, cost, insurability, and a lot more.  He strongly cautions against the idea of just "dropping in" a set of lithium batteries.  

His bottom line is:  "For those WITHOUT advanced electrical technical skills, then my advice is, wait another 3 – 5 years while this stuff works itself out via new and updated standards, new standards-compliant equipment and new system designs. Why? Because the current environment does have the ability to disappoint."

I can summarize his commentary (calling it an article is overly generous) pretty succinctly: "you can buy 6 golf cart batteries for $650 at Sam's Club, or you can spend more".

The author ultimately conveys that at the time of posting the commentary (late 2022), lithium is significantly more expensive to implement vs legacy battery technologies and with a much longer payback period. The author quotes lithium costs of $4000 for 400ah (prices from December 2022). It would be interesting to see the author present his views with current market pricing and with total system weight as a consideration. It's not hard to find 400ah lithium for less than $2000 today from reputable suppliers.

It would also be interesting to consider the resale value implications of a boat with a proper lithium setup vs golf cart batteries; the author does not contemplate this, but if you've taught us one thing @La_Rea its that a clean and modern/safe electrical setup is dreamy.

In my opinion, as it stands, his commentary could be a relevant for a cost-conscious trawler owner, but it doesn't align with my needs as an express cruiser owner that is willing to pay a reasonable premium for performance/longevity/weight savings.

LaRea

Fair enough, and my wallet will testify that some people feel performance is more important than cost.     I was referring to his argument that installers need the expertise and time to perform a thorough system design.  Otherwise, a drag-and-drop solution risks falling short of its full potential.  It would be a shame to spend $2k and get only marginal improvements.  

And it's definitely worth checking the insurance policy before making a conversion.

oscar1

I will be happing paying a little more to gain a lot more amp with less weight. 

Pat310

I dont have any experience with this but came across this while on YouTube.   https://youtu.be/VGO-qvC4VLM?si=rZjPZnJCA_AFhkhZ

PickleRick

Lithium battery group 31 will save approx 35-60 lbs per battery at 2k. 

For 1k I can get rid of approximately 300-600lbs of unnecessary weight on your boat.   

You'll lose all your food.  Beer will be replaced with rum and the admiral/mother-in-law and kids along with all their clothes/toys/baggage will be left at the dock.


There's a chance you'll be sleeping on the boat long term once I'm done with the weight reduction service so check your live board marina policy first.

TonyG13

There are lots of factors, and personal reasons, for switching - but for me the math doesn't add up.

I'm currently paying about $160 for a Group 31 lead acid battery that will usually last me 4-5 seasons (at least).

If I switched to a Lithium equivalent, it'd cost me about $1000 - which is about 6X the cost. Will that Lithium battery last me 24-30 years?

As for weight, LA is 59lbs and the LiFePO4 is 31lbs. Half the weight - or about 4 gallons of water. I can lose that weight just by regularly emptying the holding tank from all my friends rum and cokes that they deposit into the head. :-)

I just can't justify it at this time, but maybe in time things will change. I look forward to all you early adopters to keep us posted about your experiences.

LaRea

I hope lithium batteries will be the game-changer I was seeking years ago when I spent big bucks switching to TPPL batteries. I liked the TTPLs, but ultimately, the switch had no real effect on how I used the boat.  When the time came to replace them, I went back to lead-acid.  

YYZRC

The single 200ah lithium that I added two seasons ago for my inverter setup has been an absolute delight for making coffee and breakfast/lunch (dinner is always BBQ). Zero concerns about draining my separate house circuit.

davidbrooks

I am with everyone here that has looked into it but just can't quite justify it yet.  It is a little easier now as i have half the batteries and engines as i did with the 342.  But the only thing i am really powering now is an amp for the stereo.  There were really only 2-3 times i could of actually used more battery on the 342 over the 6 yrs i owned it.  So i am watching and waiting.  I need to buy two new batteries this spring.  At Sams club i am looking at about $130-150 each.  Likely to last at least 3 yrs.  When i was looking at the Lithium batteries one concern i had was of safety.  The reading i did seem to indicate that the LiFePO4 were MUCH safer for a boat.  Has that changed?

YYZRC

kordo said:

YYZRC, a few more question.  What about dropping in 2 100ah lithium batteries to replace my 2 grp 31 agm house batteries.  I would connect a dc to dc charger to one of the dc outputs of my  pronautic 3 stage charger and the other end to my lithium batteries.  I would leave my battery isolator alone so that I could still charge my lithium batteries using my engine alternators.

@kordo Marine Solar Innovations boat show pricing is $1299 for a Victron 200ah lithium and $1799 for a Victron 330ah lithium. They offer a discount for purchasing two or more. 

Current CT pricing is $406 for 100ah (cheaper option) so $1200 for 300ah and only around 50% is usable. I currently have 3 of the Extreme. 

So in short, one Victron 200ah lithium would give you almost double the usable ah you have today. You could charge from the alternator using the BMS 12/200 (about $250).

To get almost the same ah from AGM you'd need 3 batteries (about $1200), so switching to lithium would cost about 30% more.

YYZRC

I totally forgot that @Squatch68 paved the way on switching to Lithium. His post is here:
https://rinkerboats.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/comment/174193#Comment_174193

Here's my planned setup. Slightly more expensive than going with non-Victron batteries but super simple to implement. This setup allows me to keep my existing Promautic 1240p charger and also allows me to charge the lithium house batteries via the alternator.

Existing Components
ProNautic 1240p Charger
Victron ArgoFET Isolator
Victron SmartShunt

New Components
2 Victron Lithium 330ah
Victron Smart BMS 12/200 (Ignition Protected)
Victron M8 Connectors

System diagram is as follows; only a small amount of new cable required. Most important is to split the alternator from the existing charging circuit.

I also added an Orion 12|12-30 to charge my inverter battery.

oscar1

YYZRC said:

The single 200ah lithium that I added two seasons ago for my inverter setup has been an absolute delight for making coffee and breakfast/lunch (dinner is always BBQ). Zero concerns about draining my separate house circuit.

I'm going to go ahead with the lithium swap for the house bank. Probably a Victron setup as it is plug and play, IP where required, and matches my existing Victron components (solar + inverter/charger). I will report back at the end of this season on how the lithium house bank performs.

I would like to see your final set up for the new house batteries.