cruiser explodes on lake george ny

tundra250

After getting gas he turned on the ignition and it exploded into a ball of fire...He was thrown 30 feet into the water...The gas attendant pulled him out...He is in critical condition....They don't know if the blower was on or off during or after the fill up....I guess the question is whether the blower should be on filling up or after...If that was the problem....Your comments...

MarkB

All electronics off during gas fill. Once gasgas fill is done run blower for 4 minutes. Sniff for fumes at exaust of blower and if clear start engine. 

aero3113

http://m.cbs6albany.com/article?id=25890268

Michael T

I even turn-off the electronics switch that Rinker puts on the helm to power the GPS and Radar and my ignition keys are keyed ALL the way off. NO spark potential is what you want. .....and as has been mentioned on this forum, I want to see that gas nozzle touching my metal gas filler receptacle.

Handymans342

You guys better get diesels.

LaRea

The local news reporter quotes the "reason" for the explosion was that either he ran the blower while refueling, or he didn't run it long enough before starting the engines.  That's a factor, but it's not the root cause: how did fuel vapor get into the engine room in the first place?  Boats don't just spontaneously explode.  

Poor fueling practice is definitely part of it.  If he had run the blower and then sniffed the blower exhaust before starting the engines, he could have smelled the fumes.

Dream_Inn

I agree LaRea, that definitely is not the reason.  & yes, it could've been prevented.  Poor maintenance is usually one of the main reasons.  Either hoses going bad or a blower not working or the blower not wired correctly.

tundra250

How do you guys refuel?.....on...off....during

Michael T

ALL electrical devices off during fueling. Blowers especially as they can draw fumes into bilge. Fueling over run blowers for 4+ minutes sniff for fumes.

06Rinker270

Leads me to turning the batteries off while fueling, that way nothing can be on but that leads to worrying about turning something on before the blower as a chance to clear.  After just talking about this and getting everyones advice I now have this check list:

Fueling:

Everyone off

All electronics off, pull key from ignition 

Cabin doors and windows closed

Add fuel, keep nozzle in contact with metal receptacle 

Wipe up spills

Blower on 4 minutes after fueling 

Smell blower exhaust 

Lift hatch and inspect tanks/bilge 

Open hatch and all windows 

Start engine

MarkB

Yes, I wouldn't turn the batteries off, at least not the one with the blower on it. The mear action of switching the battery on (to turn the blower on) can cause a spark via surge of electricity or even on the switch itself, could arch.  You definitely want to run that blower for a while before you switch anything on or off again.

raybo3

Guys lets not get crazy about this. Why would you turn off batteries? Maybe turning them back on could cause a larger arc. Just shut off electronics and blower. Shut cabin doors and hatches. When finished fueling run blower for 5 minutes. Done....  Opps everyone off of boat while fueling also........

MarkB

Raybo, that's exactly what I said. Turning back on creates a risk of arching. Do not turn off batteries would be my humble advice.

tundra250

What about opening the engine hatch after fueling then the blower

tundra250

boat was a 28 ft chapparral...authorities are trying to figure out what happened.....google... boat fire lake George NY for more info

MarkB

Engine hatch hydraulic is probably not spark proof so that is dangerous as well. Always run the blower first. 

Black_Diamond

Anything in the engine area should be marine/non-sparking/ignition protected. Including the hatch actuator system. 

Run the blowers first. If you open the hatch and something ignites you just let the air in. 

LaRea

Such a worthy and timely topic ...

The USCG has published many articles on fuel safety.  I've never seen one that recommends any of the following:  opening the engine hatch, disconnecting batteries, or running the blower while fueling.  

But there's universal agreement that components in the engine room, including fuel lines, blowers, hatch actuators, alternators and starter motors, MUST be marine-grade, ignition-protected items -- never automotive or household items.  

That said, the human element is probably the most critical thing.  Learn safe fueling procedures, and always follow them.  Most importantly, sniff the blower exhaust before starting the engines.  That's your last line of defense, and it takes literally ten seconds.  

Michael T

No open hatch, No disconnecting batteries. No running the blower during fueling. No marina that I get gas at would even take the nozzle off the pump if any of that was going-on. You're 100% LR.

rasbury

what would be the harm of opening the engine hatch before fueling? Most of my fueling is at a gas station, I run the blower before I crank it but to be honest, not very long. When I put the boat in the water, what would be the harm of raising the hatch, hitting the blower and then fire her up? Also, I have a 270, I would think you if you had a much larger boat your fueling in the water too it's a whole different program for fueling....

Michael T

The idea of keeping the hatch shut is based on fire control - by limiting the oxygen available to any fire. As well, an open hatch defeats the ability of the blowers to remove any gasoline fumes from the engine bay and likely promotes drawing them right into the engine bay. Having the hatch closed allows the fire suppression system to function or if you don't have an automatic fire suppression system you probably have a small port that allows a fire extinguisher to be emptied into it.

Dan4754

I know that I am supposed to secure everything including the blower when I fuel my boat.

But....why is it unsafe to have the blower running while fueling but safe to turn it on after fueling? I mean, seems to me that it is just as safe, if not safer, to ventilate the bilge before the vapors  collect than after.
I would think there is a greater chance of a spark when the blower is started than when it is already running. 

Black_Diamond

The blowers are non-sparking. Running them while fueling can pull in the fumes. 

Dan4754

Ok...but, pull them from where?
And if the blower is non sparking then the fumes should not be a concern, right?
If the blower pulls them in ...shouldn't it blow them out?  What really is the difference between running your blower to prevent fume accumulation than running it after to remove them?

Michael T

There are a lot of fumes generated in the area of the nozzle while fuelling. As the gas is pumped from the storage tanks a tremendous amount of vapor is drawn out and also generated. You can easily smell the vapors. When gas and air hit a  20:1 ratio you have a huge explosive potential. It is hard to achieve that in open air but much easier in an enclosed space - your engine bay . As well, the fire suppression system is meant to be effective in a closed oxygen environment. This is chemistry and physics, not opinion. Leave the hatch closed and the blowers off while fuelling. You can't even purchase fuel at any of the marinas I visit if your blowers are on.

Dan4754

I DO agree  that the blower should be off...I'm just trying to wrap my mind around the logic of how that could be safer. 
I am a SCP and have the privilege of updating Marine Chemist certs to ensure a given space is Safe for Hot Work.
I only mention that to offer that I now have a genuine curiosity because parts of this are contrary to my training. I will definitely address this with a Chemist to get his input.
As far as vapors created during the transfer; all pumps in my area have vapor recovery nozzles. Though not 100%, when used properly they are quite effective. 
Yet still, regardless of how the vapors arrive they still need to be evacuat ed. 
I look at 2 scenarios:
1. When we first want to start our  boats we turn on the blower for at least least 4 minutes. Why? Because we ASSUME that there are fumes in the bilge already,  right? If having a blower on with fumes in the bilge is the right thing to do, then why is it unsafe to operate a blower BEFORE there are gas vapors in the engine compartment?

2. I go to the fuel dock, engine running and  blower on because I am going so slow. I arrive at the dock and the attendent hands me the nozzle. Do I turn off the blower? Why? If I turn it off then, why do I turn it on after I fuel?

I'm not trying to be difficult. 

Michael T

Hey Dan, first I am surprised that your attendant hands you a nozzle. Where I boat gas/diesel can only be dispensed by marina personnel. One reason, how many people know to ground the nozzle? How many people know how to fill without spilling gas/diesel into the water? How many people have a clue what to do if fuel is spilled? How many marinas could get10 cents worth of liability insurance if they let boaters operate fuelling equipment.

When I run my blower for four plus minutes before I start my engine I do NOT expect there to be fumes in my bilge, as I routinely check my fuel system and hoses for integrity BUT fumes can develop despite a Captain's best assessment. One certain way is when boaters fill-up their boat tanks "to the brim" the cold gas expands and runs out the vents and off-gasses enough vapors to fill a garage (boats on a trailer) this also happens with boats in slips.

We run the blowers to draw fumes out of our engine bays via the hoses in the bay. This draws fresh air into the engine compartment via the side air ducts due to the low pressure created in the engine bay by the air being withdrawn via the blowers.

I turn my blowers off as I approach the fuel dock. Because fueling vapors are created and many escape regardless of any nozzle system that might be in place and few effective ones are (imo) in reality.

Gasoline fumes are created by the process of pumping the fuel out of the storage tank and from the natural off-gassing of the liquid. To make matters worse many storage tanks are below ground thus keeping the gas cooler. As the gas is pumped to the surface it expands further off-gassing.

Regardless of any sort of vapor recovery system, the rubber rings that some nozzles have and the possibility that the marina employee knows how to properly ground the fuel nozzle - vapors do occur. If the nozzle is grounded that helps.

All of this notwithstanding, gas vapors can develop in an engine compartment. If they do the fire suppression system is your best friend as it should buy you time to flee and trained marina staff to deal with your boat. That is if your hatch is closed.

Running your blowers during fueling is probably the best way to introduce fuel vapors into your engine bay other than pouring a pail of gas right into it.

If the proper blowers have been installed (not always the case) they are USCG/CCG ignition spark protected. You start them up to remove any possible fuel vapors in your engine bay.

Once in a while you get a really good fuel dock attendant. Earlier this summer Matt the fuel dock attendant at a nearby marina had just put about 200 gallons of 91 into our boat. I had been running the blowers for about 2 minutes. A guy waiting for gas said to Matt that guy (meaning me) can start his engines now so I can pump some gas and get going.

Matt said: first, please turn off your blowers right now, second Mr. T has three more minutes of run time on his blowers and he'll decide when to start his engines and third you, sir, are to remove all personnel from your boat, turn off all electronics and are under no circumstances to touch any of my fueling equipment - if you want to purchase gas here.

TonyWalker

Funny how policies are different in different places.  At many fuel docks here in the US, the attendant is not allowed to do the fueling.  The boat operator must do that.  I do not know who or what sets that policy and I do not know if that is universal.  On our next trip that requires refueling in transit, I will pay attention to this.  Maybe someone reading this thread already knows the answer.  It might be the insurance company covering the particular marina. 

Dan4754

I appreciate the time you put into your response.
First and foremost, I thought the  blowers sucked from the the bilge area and not from outside vents.  Knowing this makes everything about running and not running the blower quite obvious. Thanks for clearing that up.
As far as an attendent to do the fueling,  I have never had the pleasure. 

Michael T

Hey Dan, in actuality you ARE correct. The blowers both suck AND draw air. They suck vapors out of the engine bay and while doing so draw in fresh air through the engine air intakes. That's why we don't run the blowers during fueling. Any fueling vapours would be drawn into the engine bay blown out and sucked-in..... vicious circle LOL

Ian

As to what happened with this event, apparently the nozzle was mistakenly put into a rod holder near the fuel fill up and so gas was pumped there and some spark ignited it.