Leaking gas tank

robc

looking for any help or info. I have a 1999 270 fiesta eve that's leaking gas. I need to know of any Long Island south shore Babylon area marina or mechanic that can replace tank. I need to know what's involved. And ball park costs.
Thanks,
Rob C.

[Deleted User]

Assuming it is a single engine boat with an aluminum tank sitting under the deck in the middle bilge area of the boat I have first hand experience, and this is what is involved:

The leaking tank has to be drained and the fuel disposed of legally. That's a few hundred bucks. Then the outdrive and engine need to be removed, not sure about the 270 but on the 250 this is a must. Another few hundred bucks.

Now the hard part. The bulkhead between the engine bay and the mid berth has to be cut away. Then the floor of the mid berth over the tank has to be removed. This is dirty labor intensive work in a confined space I would not wish on anyone.

The old tank can then be slid out. All the bulkhead and deck that has been cut away has to be replaced. Insist on making it thicker and stronger than the original. A new tank matching the dimensions of the old tank should be built by a highly competent specialized marine tank shop.  Insist on using a thicker gauge aluminum sheet metal for longevity. Tank fabrication should be well under a thousand bucks.

Not sure of your local labor rates, but they are a big component of the expense. We are talking multiple thousands of bucks to get the job done. The cost will likely meet or exceed the value of the boat.

Good luck.

Andy

rasbury

my worst nightmare...there has to be a better way.

Michael T

Ras, it's a brutal thing to have happen- and as I think remember from @andyd's post and pictures he managed to find a team (father and son?) who were both honest and competent! Heaven help the boater who has to deal with a company that is not ethical. As for me my EC 360 has two gasoline side tanks. I'm guessing that both engines, a lot of hardware and some bulkheads would have to be removed. Hopefully, that's (knock on wood) a long way down the road (river?). In the meantime, it's no ethanol gas for me and the use of stabilizing additives. Fingers crossed. ;-)

[Deleted User]

Since getting my new tank I no longer leave the boat plugged into shore power. I also keep the bilge as bone dry as possible. The tank is also well grounded. Galvanic action is the worst enemy of metals on boats, especially saltwater/brackish environments and it's important to do everything to minimize the corrosion.

Andy

[Deleted User]

Honestly, if I owned an older boat worth under ten grand, replacing the factory tank just does not make financial sense. There isn't a good alternative place to put in a second tank on most smaller cruisers, so sad to say the only other option is to strip her of valuable parts and then put the rest of the boat through the big chipper.

Andy

Michael T

@andyd - Wow! That's frightening, honest and true,  but still frightening!

robc

Andyd, Thanks I think

Michael T

@robc, disappointing news. Of course you have checked all hoses and connections (including the one to the vent) and they are not at fault?

rasbury

Here is what I have been thinking....I was looking at putting a bladder in the back of my truck to assist with getting out of bad ramps- adding weight to the rear wheels and then when your done you can pump the water back into water source. While looking at bladders, there are some that are produced that are rated to hold all sorts of stuff chemically. Now on my 270, you have an area that you would have access to the tank, cut out a portion of the top of the tank and stuff one of these bladders in there and now you have a "new tank", how far off am I?

Michael T

If the bladder is USCG approved you may be brilliant! Maybe even cut the end of the tank out, slide the bladder in after smoothing all edges?

MarkB

If it can be rolled up to squeeze down the nozzle and into the tank, then expanded with compressed air to seat against the tank walls, which would provide the structural support, then it might be a great idea (Ras, I want some royalties for improving your idea!).

Michael T

@Rasbury - Even if it wouldn't go down the nozzle, which I doubt, you probably would only have to cut a small hole, maybe 12"X12" to get it in from the top - or somewhere. I'm serious - this may be a whole new fix. Ras remember us when you are cruising along in that 100' liner you bought from the royalties.

frenchship

Look at this site for flexible fuel tank.

http://atlinc.com/marine.html

MarkB

MT, the tank isn't that big.  My tank is 75 gallons. That works out to a 65cm x 65cm x 65cm volume (okay I know it's not a cube, but just saying its like 2ft x 2ft x 2ft if it were a cube).  You could easily role that up if you had a 1mm membrane. The nozzle is 50 mm (2"). My guess is the rolled up membrane would be only 1.5" in diameter, and 1 ft long. Plus the the stub the nozzle is on is only 2 or 3" from the tank wall. It would be easy to plop it in and use compressed air to fill it up and have it seat against the walls.

rasbury

Well, I don't think there will be any royalties involved, but, I do think it would work.  I looked at a lot of sites and there are companies that supply the government with stuff that look like you could put nuclear waste in so I think it would work. I know if I have this problem, this is for sure a path I will go down vs. tearing the boat apart! It would not have to be an exact fit- there may be some issue with vibrations and wearing on the bladder but I can't imagine this would not work.

LaRea

If the tank leaked because of corrosion, the inside will have a rough surface in direct contact with the bladder.  Add shock and vibration over time, and it could damage the bladder - no?

[Deleted User]

I love good old American ingenuity. There may well be a fuel bladder product that could be designed to fit inside an old leaky tank. However, assuming this is possible it may let an owner continue to use his boat, but I think it would make selling the boat a huge challenge and do a real number on resale value. Also, insurance companies might not be comfortable with such a fix. Conversely, a brand new tank, as expensive as it is, should be a selling point for a used boat old enough to be vulnerable to tank failure.

I did find a firm up in Washington State that has a product that coats the inside of leaky tanks. However they appear to be the only company doing this and there location makes it an impractical solution for any owner not located in that area.

Andy

MarkB

LaRea said:

If the tank leaked because of corrosion, the inside will have a rough surface in direct contact with the bladder.  Add shock and vibration over time, and it could damage the bladder - no?

I don't think so. Vinyl pool liners are only like 2 mm thick and there are still little 1 mm grains of rock on the bottom. Kids step on them all the time and it just moulds around them. 

Michael T

Are we running dual threads on this topic?

rasbury

Well, wanted to start a separate thread for just a discussion on the bladder idea.

[Deleted User]

There has to be a way to design a small express cruiser boat that allows easier removal of a bad tank. It isn't the cost of a new tank that's the problem, they are relatively inexpensive, the problem is that the boat is built around the tank without taking into consideration they last perhaps half as long as the rest of the structure of the vessel. Scrapping a perfectly good hull for the sake of a lousy fuel leak is a crying shame.

Andy

MarkB

What about installing a tank that doesn't corrode so this isn't an issue at all! I don't think the space is the problem if it never has to be replaced.

Michael T

Some boats (some of the sea rays I believe) have twin tanks in the engine bay to the outside of the engines. So, I guess the worst is that you have to pull the engines then slide them out. Not bad.

BellevilleMXZ

They should either be stainless or plastic so its a non issue.

[Deleted User]

Based on a conversation I had with the owner of the tank fabrication shop, even marine grade stainless steel corrodes from galvanic action if in contact with saltwater and other metals too. I'd say plastic might be the answer, but then again I'm sure plastic tanks have been known to crack or have molding defects that result in leaks. Interesting info on stainless steel corrosion here:

http://www.estainlesssteel.com/corrosion.shtml

Note that only gold, silver or palladium do not corrode spontaneously. So if you're rich, there's your answer! 

Andy

MarkB

The other problem with plastic is it cannot be grounded easily (need to impregnate carbon in the plastic). This could lead to static build up and cause a spark. Deal with this on some of the chemical plants we design.

Michael T

Also if you use E10 gas that can eat most plastics. Not too good for metals either.

[Deleted User]

It would be straightforward to have a removable plywood deck over the tank, which serves as the deck under the midberth mattress.  Perhaps a dozen lag bolts around the perimeter should do it. The forward engine bay bulkhead is a little trickier because it's structural, but not an insurmountable engineering challenge to have the section in front of the tank removable.

I can't imagine this adding more that a thousand bucks to the cost of the boat, not a lot on a six figure+ purchase. Of course, I'm no naval architect/boat designer/ engineer and I could be wrong.

The big headache with this job is the cutting involved and the horrible dusty mess that creates. Also, figuring out where to cut and taking a Sawzall to a boat takes some big huevos.

Andy

Cableguy Greg

Tank replacement on some of the runabouts is an issue as well. On my '98 232cc the tank was under a gel coated floor. They improved the design in the later years by making a removable floor panel. No matter what boat you have, the tank replacement isn't cheap.

rasbury

ok- back to the topic, we need to work on fixing the problem tanks we have without scraping the boat- bladders?