Synthetic Oils Comparison
Michael T
Member Posts: 7,227 ✭✭✭✭✭
We often talk about the desired properties of various oils. I was sent this article by a friend who is a certified marine technician and a certified General Motors technician. He is presently the service manager of a large GM dealership. In his spare time he takes his high performance Mustang to the track, builds engines and "soups-up" his friends marine engines. He runs Mobil 1 in some of his vehicles, Kendall racing oil in others. It was his opinion that Mercury Full Synthetic was an excellent oil (he'll send me any test reports he finds regarding it) and agrees that for late model catalysed Mercruiser engines the Mercury Synthetic-Blend is probably the best oil. He also likes to pull his oil filters at the half way part of any oil schedule and replace them with new high efficiency or in some cases racing filters and top-up the oil. He recommended Mercury High Efficiency Oil Filters to me but I told him I was already using them. He does believe strongly in oil analysis.
https://www.pca.org/news/2015-11-02/synthetic-word-relates-motor-oil
Comments
In most cases the case of failure on engines is not any sort of wear factor, its a mechanical failure. Not caused by friction of any sort, but by exponential rotational forces usually by to much torque on a gear set, or by over revs.
I had lots of competitors doing "oil analysis" tests, and testing various synthetic oils, and in a vast majority of cases it was totally a waste of money. Since the engine or transmission failed mechanically and not due to a long term use issue.
You would be better off to use a regular oil, and change it at a normal interval, and ensure the engine revs are kept in check, and any sort of drive train shock. That would go vastly farther to ensure engine life than any particular brand of oil or engine or fuel additive. In my experiance.
IMO any decent oil formulated by a reliable manufacturer will perform adequately under normal family driving with a 30 minute trip to WalMart with NO fast accelerations, NO super hot days with the AC on, NO frequent hard braking and starting etc. Where synthetic oils can not be matched by any other oil is under high heat loads. My uncle who was a petroleum chemical engineer for Shell Oil showed me all the tests. Every single stock "pure" mineral oil vaporized under high stress heat loads - EVERY single one! ALL of the "pure" mineral based oils failed shear-wear tests as well, which BTW are a very reliable test to determine an oil's performance. In racing, which I have done a lot of, mechanical parts will fail no matter the oil but they last a LOT longer with synthetic oils. BTW I do not believe there is any automotive/marine oil available in the U.S. - unless by some sort of special personal order - that does not contain at least some synthetics because no "pure" mineral based oil would meet EPA fuel mileage standards without the "slickness" that synthetics bring. So, all automotive/marine oils have some synthetic in them. The science behind synthetics is beyond dispute - just ask any chemical engineer. Long chain polymers form in response to stress on the oil, protecting parts at temperatures that would melt the metal. The worse the situation the better a synthetic protects. Of particular note is their use in marine engines - engines that spend most of their life under stresses that would blow-up an automotive engine. I have heard guys say I use such and such a racing oil and it's a "pure" refined "straight" mineral oil. Check again, that's B.S. Engine temperatures in any engine can spike to tremendous temperatures at a split second's notice for a variety of reasons and at that point a synthetic will protect when a mineral oil or less quality additive oil will fail - as in vaporize, that's vaporize. Frequent changing of crap oil will mean you are just swapping out crap oil for more crap oil. Changing sh*t frequently still leaves you with sh*t in your oil pan. The lessened interval of oil changes with "crappy" oil will not save wear on your engine nor will it protect it under load. I'm an old geezer but at least I'm not in the friggin' stone age - saying "ordinary additive oils" can compete - in ANY mechanical safety parameter - with quality synthetics - is stone age thinking. The little bit of money you save buying cheap oil (sh*t) will come back to haunt you with decreased longevity for sure and possibly engine/drive failure.....and don't even get me going on the value of oil analysis. For that refer to @212's lengthy and authoritative post on that subject.
IMO For those of us with "stock" marine engines I have found Mercruiser Full Synthetic and Mercruiser Synthetic Blend for catalysed engines to perform superbly. I have seen independent oil analysis tests of the Mercruiser Full Synthetic and they were awesome. I have not seen any analysis tests of the Mercruiser Synthetic Blend (which I use) yet.
I'm just saying, you both make good points. Use decent oil (yes, I use Merc Synthetic blend) and keep the revs in check and drive train shock to minimal (which is very important).
Dream 'Inn III -- 2008 400 Express
As for actual wear failures, I have not really seen many. A few scored cams, and journals, and some low compression over years of use. However low compression is not really a failure as such.
Most of the time, it is engines puking pistons and rods from the exponential forces generated in a over revving condition. Or gear failures due to torque loads or failures due to thermal loads.
two things that prompted me to respond-
1- a dirtier filter filters better than a new filter until the saturation point is achieved, and then the added pressure (due to the debris) will tear through, and then you ain't filtering anything. Also, if the filter is not the proper filter and pressure is too high or too low, the bypass will kick in and it will go right past it anyway... so... unless you're inspecting a filter for something you suspect is wrong, I'd leave it be until it's reached the end of it's service life/interval.. One of the biggest reasons I say this ain't because of the filter, it's properties, or even it's performance- it's more to the fact that swapping filters is where people screw up the most- don't pre-fill it, don't oil the o-ring, don't seat it, or seat it too much, ect... why introduce another opportunity to screw something up that is needless?
2- debunking additives: I was too in this camp... I am still... with one exception, and an important one for marine engines, or engines that sit as often as they run........... nano technology in oil has come a long long way in a short short time, and I have uber faith in two products, one more than the other... RevX and Archoil 9200... both are additive packages that started life as a product to freshen up OTR oil, where oil is monitored and changed only when needed, often times seeing 400k+ miles. that's a lot... As is the old saying, "oil doesn't deplete, it contaminates to exhaustion". This is true. But, filtering it properly and monitoring it via sample analysis, you may find everything is great except for the base number... archoil and revx came along to bring those counts back up... and then they stumbled into another technology while doing so... Nano oils reduce friction by a tremendous amount, and here is the important part for our concerns: they stick like really slick glue to hard parts when they are still... it's called shear strength in oil communities, and it is ridiculously strong, making the proper oil in your crankcase even better at sticking- and when it's all said and done, THAT is the biggest difference in marine vs. standard oils... I HIGHLY recommend this stuff.
and one more item: all synthetics aren't near the same... there are group 3 synthetics that are based on dino with just enough additive to be called synthetic, and which covers most the market of synthetics.. then there are group four, which also may have some dino based, but isn't primarily dino based, then there are the rare group fives, which are ester based and underwent extreme effort to collect... redline, blue flame, ect, are group 5's, and just about none of them are made with anything that is intended to be ran more than 1k miles- they are made to be super slick (reduce parasitic loss of power) and dispel temperature (flash points well north of 500*) more than anything... you'll find no phosphate silicate compounds in them, no zddp, nothing to displace water, none of that at all... they're specific to being super slick, maintaining there pour, and handling shear of super high velocity revs... and for that they are great, and many a bearing may have not been spun had they been used, nor camshaft scored, but they serve zero purpose for our application...
on an aside, I've become a huge Schaeffer's fan... Schauffer's Supreme 9000 and a shot of Archoil9200 and I'm running 15k mile intervals and being told to go longer (but I can't bring myself to do so)... the counts are down and the tbn's steady.... I'll be running it in the floater when I get around to it!
We have the same debates at the race track as well
Its a pretty common debate with motorsports. Alot of people put additives in their engines, or have some "fuel saving" device in the engine ect ect....There are tons of crazy things on the market. Vortex swirl generators for intake air, super surfactants, super lubes, magnetic fuel products, ect ect..the list goes on and on.
Heck..look at the bottled water industry
I'm tellin ya though, the nanolubricants are the bees knees...
Tq on bolts.. casting or forging of parts... Flatness of marrying surfaces.. was there any kind of lube or dressing on those threads??? ... This is why I'm so drawn to engines.. it's the concert of different parts and pieces, each simple bit when combined not so much.. teamwork.. each part meeting expectations.. symbiosis of hard metal slick stuff and catalyst.. then testing yours against someone else's.. good times.
I will say the Merc was definitely darker and I had to put in an additional ~ 1qt towards the end of the season. I did do quite a bit more tubing and higher rpm cruising though, so the comparison may not be 100% apples to apples. We'll see how the Merc held up though.
@ 212 your comments about synthetic oil comparisons stating that all synthetic oils are not created equal are congruent with the article I re-posted. However, I respectfully disagree that the most important thing that matters is the oil change interval. Changing crappy oil frequently is like holding a hand full of deuces - no matter how frequently you shuffle them you still have cr*p. The most important thing that matters is the quality of oil you use - then- how frequently you change it.
My brother-in-law has a very large fleet of trucks. Who cares, right? The important part of that comment is that they are all equipped with dual filters and auto change oil systems, run right from the pans via SS hoses. The oil is analysed constantly. He has found it far cheaper and far more effective to run synthetic oils and change them at intervals prescribed by analysis. He toyed a bit with additives at one point but he concluded it was a waste of time and money. His experience dictated that quality synthetic oil well monitored was the best way to go. And yes, as the article I re-posted stated there are a variety of synthetic oils that are NOT created equal. As always, buyer beware, and do your research!
@JoeStang I really like Mobil 1... IMO it is the best synthetic out there for anywhere near a normal price. I used it in everything I had - even my Kohler engine powered lawn tractor and whole house emergency generator. GM has now approved it for the warranty on my suv's engine so I'll be switching from Dexos to it. I used it in my 327/325 and 383's. It was amazing. I have not been able to secure written permission to use it in my 2014 Mercury 8.2 cataysed magnums and maintain warranty, as warranty calls for Mercury Synthetic-Blend 25W-40. Years ago you used to have to run conventional oils to seat your rings because if you used, for example Mobil 1, they would never seat and your engine would burn oil forever. I was told Mobil has made some changes to address that and new Corvettes and Cadillac CTS-V's now leave the factory with Mobil 1 in them. I was also told that GM changed the configuration of the oil control rings in their engines and also breaks-in those engines at the factory for a longer period.
I intend to have the Mercury Synthetic-Blend 25W-40 I run tested next year. This year with a filter change and oil top-up at 45 hours my oil "looked" good at 90 hours. Analysis will tell me if the "good" look was really good! I have an EC 360 and did not burn any noticeable amount of oil and I spent 70% of my running time at about 3400 rpm with an 8 ton boat.
full flow filters only filter to a nominal 25uc... that same filter can only be trusted to capture anything larger than 40... most engine damage is done by particles in the 5uc range.
oil that appears 'clean' w/o a reason after it's intended interval tells me my engine is full of sediments and ash the oil wasn't capable of suspending. dirty oil tells me it captured and retained the crap.
that said, I run a 2uc by-pass filter on my truck, an amsoil product, and it sips off the main line and reintroduces it after passing through the filter. My oil has about 3500 miles on it right now, and it still has that trademark Schaeffer's green tint to it w/o a hint of black. This is a diesel we're talking about, now.. prior to the bypass filter I'd not make it out of the garage before that oil was black. I can easily get 15k miles per interval... realize, though, my sump is 18qts... the over the road guys have sumps of 12+ gallons... 48 quarts... they shove them through a full flow filter, then double canister bypass filters.. these guys are seeing 400k miles+ per interval, and by using high quality syn oils to start with.
there is a lot of lore around oils... people do things because it's worked for them in the past, and then look for ways to communicate that is the best procedure... those folks are hard to convince otherwise, and rightfully so... If it's worked for you every time, why would you change? The TRUTH is this, no matter what Merc, GM, IH, or even Briggs and Stratton say: There is an expectation from your choice and grade of oil that needs to meet the engines requirements, and then the rest of it is totally dependent on not only where you use your motor, what environment, but also how often, and how much... The oil that works for you as validated by an analysis may not be a good product for someone else with the same engine... it's just that simple...
I'll shut up after this:
If I were out in the SW, I'd use Mystic oil- good quality dino, it is, and I'd change it every 3k miles... dust is the enemy... If I lived in the great white north, I'd use M1 because very few oils pour like M1 below -40*f... they become like syrup at best, or like lard at worst. I'd use Amsoil HD in the deep south, especially on an engine that doesn't often see north of 200* engine oil temperatures, and because of it's dispersing properties. Then, I'd analyze each selection (depending on value of the engine) to determine scientifically if my choice is holding up in the environment I'm in and use I'm putting it through. I'd change the oil according to the results of that analysis. Too much nickel and/or lead? My bearings are getting worked over.... there is something better- ect.... things like that.
oil is a subject that seems to be precise, but it ain't.... it's very subjective. If you go over to BITOG (bob is the oil guy) and do some study, you'll find used oil analysis reports, and the educated guys over there discuss results based off of prior reports, not necessarily oil brands/grades. The object is to find the oil that's best for you, not the unicorn being ridden by a yeti that is good for everyone in every application... it doesn't exist. hence, selection on the market... hence, also, it's a perfect place for marketing to exploit uninformed consumers...
There as vastly more important things we could do to make our engines reliable, than using brand x synthetic oil vs brand Y synthetic oil. Or doing oil tests.
You would be better off doing cooling system upgrades. Or increasing your oil capacity and use a oil cooler. Or a accumulator. Or better oil lines. Almost anything is better for the mechanical safety of your engine, than debating brand x is better than brand y, and or this engine additive is better.
The fact is you putting money into oil analysis, and oil addtives is moot, when the engine mode failure is not related to those factors. The engine will fail vastly far before the choice of oil is even a factor. Your cooling system will fail, you will over rev it, you will strike a log or other debris in the water. Some other component will fail like a oil pump, fuel pump, water pump. You will get some sort of destructive detonation/ping. ect ect... this list is vastly long before oil brand would even show up.
Think about it this way.. with race teams (pick your motorsport) that have oil sponsors (they all do). Do you think the race teams worry about thier oil sponsor brand as being a mode of failure to their racing success? Or worded differnt, have you seen a race team ever dump a sponsor because their oil product was an impediment to the teams racing success? Nope.. its a total non issue. It is so low on the list of things to worry about its simply not a factor.
Its like bickering over Nestle bottled water is better than Perrier, in regards to when the water bottle will spring a leak.
Okay, since I started this thread let's look at the original premise. I posted the article that posited that we can not necessarily rely on oil performance classifications. Indeed that even the much vaunted synthetic oils vary widely in their ability to protect our engine.
Therefore, using the oil we deemed best for our boat's usage and determining the appropriate oil change interval was sound preventative maintenance - and would increase the longevity of the marine engines that 90% of us on this forum own.
In my opinion, somewhere after that, we entered the land of goofy. I realize that valve trains can float, pistons and rods go awry, fuel and cooling systems can fail causing catastrophic damage. That's why we have - for years on this list - discussed preventative maintenance; changing fuel filters, oil filters, impellers, checking heat exchangers, hoses for integrity, exhaust flappers and manifolds for integrity and easiest of all, with the greatest bang for our buck of all - use a quality oil and filter and change them as per our use.
Yeah, all of that catastrophic stuff can happen (more likely in NASCAR than 90% our marine applications) and we can hit a log or rock or bridge or the engine fairy can wave her wand and our engine explodes.
Yes. sooner or later parts will wear-out and will need to be replaced. We can't outrun father time. We get that, our hobby/passion is not without costs.
In the meantime, without all of the side show drama, posturing and histrionics, I stand by our discussions (of many years on this list) of preventative MARINE maintenance and it is my opinion that the use of a quality synthetic oil, changed as dictated by our usage is the easiest and cheapest insurance for our engines - as they are far more likely to suffer from wear than catastrophic failure.
Therefore, back to my original premise; research your oils and filters because they vary greatly in quality and performance, industry classifications may not be representative of quality or performance and it is definitely a buyer beware situation.
.....and finally, if Citgo/Mystik (as @Alswagg stated above) formulates oil for Mercury that, in my opinion, is a very good thing.
Boat Name: King Kong
"Boat + Water = Fun"
wait till we have a "fuel additive" discussion
many a discussion at the track on flame front propagation ..and what fuel concoction people were using
using mostly benzine/gas for fuel..and crazy thermal rejection issues
whole other levels of stress and cooling
He said he built an offshore racing boat based on the technology. Made all sorts of outrageous claims on performance. None of it ever materialized, and now he's in jail on money laundering charges.
We had a few guys playing around with them on the aero side of cars. They did not seem to make much difference.
I found the best way was just more power
BTW, when I purchased the 2014 EC 360 with twin 502 magnums I telephoned an engine builder friend. We discussed the break-in recommendations made by Mercury, which were: for the first 20 hours avoid any prolonged idling and no wake zones - and - run the boat at planning speeds while varying the rpm - and - avoid WOT. My friend said, you follow that and those engines will last "forever". I did but make no mistake it was expensive keeping that EC 360 on plane for 20 hours. It cost me US $800.00 in gas! At the 20 hour mark I changed the factory oil to Synthetic Blend 25W 40 and installed new Mercury H.E. Filters. So, imo if you have the opportunity to own new engines, it is a wise investment to break them in right. After that, imo, good oil and filters changed right.
BTW - I don't know how it would play-out if you didn't follow the break-in advice to a "T" and there were engine warranty issues, but with the VV7 any tech can print-out a data sheet of the entire history of the use of the engines. I asked for and got a 12 page print-out last summer of all the data (RPM, Cooling temps, Pressure readings) I asked for. Hmmmmm
However there is another break in camp that suggests just drive it like you normally would with no particular break in precautions.
I personally have just varied the throttle for 100km or so avoided max RPM , and then its fair game on the engine.
From the factory when they do first start up testing they don't pay any particular regard other than making sure the engine works as it should.
I think that avoiding Max rpm and load for a short period 100km or so (1hr run time) while the rings seat is probably a good idea, and varying the RPM as well. It cant hurt so why not.
Most new engines are full of assembly lube so when started for the first time are protected from a dry start. (home built ones) Factory engines have already been tested so they come to you pre lubed.
We have a few guys that do zero break in for engines as well at the track. They start them make sure there are no leaks and the cooling system is working, and then its off to the races. Full stress on them.
I just bought a new 2015 ford f150 with the 5l V8, and there was no instructions when I bought it about breaking it in at all.
It would be cool to see some leakdown tests of a engine that was broken in really slow. And an engine that was run to the max with no break in. after lets say 200hrs of run time.