Synthetic Oils Comparison

Michael T

@212 - I agree and believe I stated a number of times in the thread above that I respect the value of oil analysis.

As well, I believe in using: quality oil (IMO - that's a synthetic), quality filter, frequency of change as dictated by your usage, as determined by oil analysis. I have been stating that for 15 years.

The point of the article I originally posted was, I believe, do NOT trust manufacturer's claims , particularly of the composition of their oils - do some research - to see if the "quality" of the oil as "claimed" is indeed accurate. - AND - oil analysis is GOOD as shown by two representative exemplar tests.

Synthetic does not necessarily mean what many people think it does. I also hold fast to  the notion that doing the above will significantly lengthen the time to a rebuild.

 

06Rinker270

Silly oil question but I want to be 100% sure.  I am putting in synthetic but none of my manuals give me part numbers for the synthetic, just the regular.  Is this correct for a 2006 350mag?  The non synthetic is correct based on my manual.

 

Dream_Inn

This is what I ordered from Michigan Motorz:

4-Cycle Synthetic Blend MerCruiser Oil / 25W-40 - Gallon Item# 7640 (92-8M0078623) Not sure what the difference is from what you have listed.  Both say Synthetic Blend.

$27.95 USD

5

$139.75 USD

Dream_Inn

http://www.michiganmotorz.com/cycle-synthetic-blend-mercruiser-gallon-p-7640.html

69fastback

F1100 said:

After 16 years of racing, and owning a race shop, I can safely say that oil additives and the "oil debate" is mostly bunk.

In most cases the case of failure on engines is not any sort of wear factor, its a mechanical failure. Not caused by friction of any sort, but by exponential rotational forces usually by to much torque on a gear set, or by over revs.

I had lots of competitors doing "oil analysis" tests, and testing various synthetic oils, and in a vast majority of cases it was totally a waste of money. Since the engine or transmission failed mechanically and not due to a long term use issue.

You would be better off to use a regular oil, and change it at a normal interval, and ensure the engine revs are kept in check, and any sort of drive train shock. That would go vastly farther to ensure engine life than any particular brand of oil or engine or fuel additive. In my experiance.

EXACTLY!


i see these great oil debates on every forum. I've built racing and street/strip engines most of my life, and I always tell people that regular oil changes are far more important than the type of oil you put in. Conventional or synthetic.....doesn't matter. Just keep it changed. I've never seen an engine fail do to the type of oil that was used. I use Valvoline VR1 conventional oil in my race car. Not synthetic. 

212rowboat

69fastback said:

F1100 said:

After 16 years of racing, and owning a race shop, I can safely say that oil additives and the "oil debate" is mostly bunk.

In most cases the case of failure on engines is not any sort of wear factor, its a mechanical failure. Not caused by friction of any sort, but by exponential rotational forces usually by to much torque on a gear set, or by over revs.

I had lots of competitors doing "oil analysis" tests, and testing various synthetic oils, and in a vast majority of cases it was totally a waste of money. Since the engine or transmission failed mechanically and not due to a long term use issue.

You would be better off to use a regular oil, and change it at a normal interval, and ensure the engine revs are kept in check, and any sort of drive train shock. That would go vastly farther to ensure engine life than any particular brand of oil or engine or fuel additive. In my experiance.

EXACTLY!


i see these great oil debates on every forum. I've built racing and street/strip engines most of my life, and I always tell people that regular oil changes are far more important than the type of oil you put in. Conventional or synthetic.....doesn't matter. Just keep it changed. I've never seen an engine fail do to the type of oil that was used. I use Valvoline VR1 conventional oil in my race car. Not synthetic. 

a racing oil- one intended for racing- such as redline just to yank one out of the hat, is as good a lubricant and capable of resisting heat as anything made- it is a grade 5 ester based oil and freakin' expensive, but it will last you- oh, about 500 laps or so, before it is exhausted.

a good conventional oil- be it group three dino, group four blend, or even group five ester gives up space per cc in lubrication, but replaces that space per cc with detergents to suspend particulates and adhere to hard parts (shear strength), emulsifiers or dispersing agents, ect... it'll last you quite a while before it exhausts if your environment is reasonable for its purpose.  it won't lubricate and cool like that racing oil will in high revving high load situations, though.  

a decent marine oil and a good classic or show car oil adheres- clings- shear strength... it hangs on for months and months if not disturbed, and protects the parts from rust and chemical reaction to the environment they're in.

there are different oils for different reasons.   < that little bit of truth allows for a disturbance in the force which gives enough gap for oil MARKETERS to jump in with all the wild tales of why their's is better.  Most of it is crap... not all of it is.  

Michael T

I have been using synthetic oil in every engine possible since its inception.

We have debated the merits before, on this forum, at LENGTH. There have been pictures and reports of engines on dynos (from me) oil spec reports ( from @rwoboat212)and comments from you name it. I doubt few people have changed their positions.

I have used synthetic (usually fully synthetic) oils in my marine engines for over 20 years. Have owned 5 350 magnums. The first one is still pulling tubers and skiers.

I have used Mercruiser Fully Synthetic in my last 3 Mercruiser 350 Mags including with my twin 2013 350 "catalysed" Mags in my 2014 Rinker EC 310.  I have used Amsoil, Kendall Racing etc. over the years.

When I bought 2014 twin 502 "catalysed"  Mercruiser Mags in my 2014 Rinker EC 360,  Mercruiser had changed their "highly recommended" designation from "Fully Synthetic" to "Synthetic Blend".

The Mercury factory guys I knew said the new Synthetic Blend was far better for "catalysed" engines (highly recommended) and much better for "non-catalysed" engines.

My reason for using it is simple - imo your oil is a major factor that stands between you and big repair bills, so why shoestring that purchase?

06Rinker270

@Dream_Inn you dont see a difference from your Quicksilver Synthetic to the Mercury synthetic I posted?  

Also why do you use Quicksilver versus Mercury?

69fastback

212rowboat said:

69fastback said:

F1100 said:

After 16 years of racing, and owning a race shop, I can safely say that oil additives and the "oil debate" is mostly bunk.

In most cases the case of failure on engines is not any sort of wear factor, its a mechanical failure. Not caused by friction of any sort, but by exponential rotational forces usually by to much torque on a gear set, or by over revs.

I had lots of competitors doing "oil analysis" tests, and testing various synthetic oils, and in a vast majority of cases it was totally a waste of money. Since the engine or transmission failed mechanically and not due to a long term use issue.

You would be better off to use a regular oil, and change it at a normal interval, and ensure the engine revs are kept in check, and any sort of drive train shock. That would go vastly farther to ensure engine life than any particular brand of oil or engine or fuel additive. In my experiance.

EXACTLY!


i see these great oil debates on every forum. I've built racing and street/strip engines most of my life, and I always tell people that regular oil changes are far more important than the type of oil you put in. Conventional or synthetic.....doesn't matter. Just keep it changed. I've never seen an engine fail do to the type of oil that was used. I use Valvoline VR1 conventional oil in my race car. Not synthetic. 

a racing oil- one intended for racing- such as redline just to yank one out of the hat, is as good a lubricant and capable of resisting heat as anything made- it is a grade 5 ester based oil and freakin' expensive, but it will last you- oh, about 500 laps or so, before it is exhausted.

a good conventional oil- be it group three dino, group four blend, or even group five ester gives up space per cc in lubrication, but replaces that space per cc with detergents to suspend particulates and adhere to hard parts (shear strength), emulsifiers or dispersing agents, ect... it'll last you quite a while before it exhausts if your environment is reasonable for its purpose.  it won't lubricate and cool like that racing oil will in high revving high load situations, though.  

a decent marine oil and a good classic or show car oil adheres- clings- shear strength... it hangs on for months and months if not disturbed, and protects the parts from rust and chemical reaction to the environment they're in.

there are different oils for different reasons.   < that little bit of truth allows for a disturbance in the force which gives enough gap for oil MARKETERS to jump in with all the wild tales of why their's is better.  Most of it is crap... not all of it is.  

VR1 conventional oil isn't expensive. It costs the same as a regular quart of valvlonine at oreilly auto parts. I change it after every race. If I used synthetic, guess what I'd do? I'd change it after every race. The only reason I use VR1 over regular Valvoline is because it has increased levels of ZDDP, which my valvetrain needs. I've never ran synthetic in anything I've ever own....ever. Just cheap conventional oil, and guess how many issues I've had due to that. So, in my personal experience of many different types of engines, from marine, to race, to diesel, to a commuter, I change at regular intervals, and have seen 0 loss from not running synthetic. In engine failures I have seen in life, I've never seen one where I could have said "yep, if you had synthetic in there, that engine would still be alive." 

My fully built C4 transmission, with a 5000 stall and transbrake, get oreillys brand transmission fluid.  

69fastback

Oh, and I run straight up Valvoline in my 350 MAG too. ~gasp~

Michael T

Two facts. One:  ALL oils (even "dino") non-synthetic mineral based oils that are not special non-synthetic formulations have some synthetics in them or they would never pass the EPA mileage requirements. Two: there is NO pure mineral-based oil on the market that can withstand the heat and friction extremes that CAN occur in most engines - certainly in marine engines as well as a decent synthetic. That is not a debatable point. It is grade 10 physics and grade 11 chemistry. Any decent synthetic oil has additives that create long chain polymers under heat and friction. These polymers build under duress. This is just science. For those who doubt this I have another heartbreaking piece of information..... the earth is round (well sort of).

69fastback

Well, your fact number one, makes your fact number two irrelevant, since fact number two references something fact number one says doesn't exist. 

I don't disgaree with with fact number one, or portions of two. Conventional oil is up to any task presented, and "most" engines don't see the extreme heat and friction you speak of. Typical another type of failure is the cause of such an occurrence. and Again.....when you see an engine die that could have been saved by running a synthetic oil, let me know. I'm talking real world engines, because I've torn down, and been inside countless engines. Some run synthetic, and some don't. Some were still good running engines, and some blown up, and upon inspecting bearings, and overall wear, taking into consideration miles and application, there's never been any difference. 

Maintenance is, and always will be, the key to engine life.  


Funny how my Blackstone results that I do on all my oil changes in my race car never show any issues with conventional oil. That's conventional oil that's been subjected to extreme conditions. This must be an unexplainable freak occurrence. 


Bottom of of the line is, sure, there's nothing wrong with running a synthetic, but on the flip side, there's nothing wrong with running conventional either, and it seems many of the die hard synthetic lovers try to convince others that they are sentencing their engine to certain death if the don't run synthetic, and that's just not true. Conventional oil is sufficient and acceptable. Poor maintenance is not. 

212rowboat

your snarky response, fastback, is uncalled for.  

ZDDP is the old manner of doing things, which demonstrates you're dated in your information and undermines just about anything you have to say on the matter... makers are running from zinc compounds or compounds containing zinc as fast as they can.  and I can sense your snarky response brewing, and will pre-counter it by saying:  oil formulation changes constantly.  dino's today exceed the best synthetics produced even ten years ago.  they do it without notice, on top of that.  there is no regulation that they have to tell you.  if you have a quart of your VR1 on a shelf from two years ago and one that was just bottled, the chances the oils are only similar in presentation (label) and weight exceed the chances they are the same..( ~gasp~)..... but, chances are the oil still performs in a manner consistent with the dated one. 

higher quality oils formulation trickles down into cheaper oils as the processes improve.  a group 5 ester, glycol, or silicone base stock oil is already easier to work with than the blends (4) or the dino (3's).  The 'trickle down' into the dino bases is what makes the 3's and 4's so much better than they were even a decade ago- and in every category or way.  And it is the same reason why those oils are superior to the threes and four's.  

three's and four's deplete- they exhaust- the oil 'wears out' (but it takes a helluva lot longer than 3k miles or 1 year).  the only portion of it that can be recovered is the synthetic portion- the ester, silicone or glycol parts... group five, however, doesn't exhaust- it just becomes contaminated... it can be filtered, have additive/refresher added (the detergent package) and re-used.  It's cheaper and easier for an end user to collect it and replace it.. it's cheaper and easier for a manufacturer to recycle and reuse it than it is to produce more.  

all this doesn't really matter for most applications either strip, street, or waterway.  it is getting down into the weeds and discussing things that have little impact on average everyday boaters/drivers/builders.  but it is still there, and it still matters- it is nice to be able to dismiss it by just saying "change your oil" or "intervals matter more than type"- and that is precisely what we can do, but that didn't come about because it wasn't addressed- it came about because dudes in white coats and degrees in chemistry figured it out for us so we can be lazy. 

^ and that should be fact #3.
 
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/29113/base-oil-groups

but since i've typed this much:

a gent here lost a bearing on his engine- I think it was the bearing cradling 1-2.   My personal thoughts on that engine is that the install was wrong, or the part was wrong- i wager the top cap and the bottom cap were confused, and the one without the oil vane was installed where oil was supposed to pass. the way that thing was mangled shows there was no or very little oil present.  because of this catastrophe the engine was lost.  obviously it wouldn't have happened if it was made correctly/properly (if my contention is accurate), but it wouldn't have happened without warning, either, if the oil in that gap would have been enough to support it- and if it were a high shear group five ester based oil, it would have saved the day.  it doesn't have to be exchanged and it doesn't wear out due to temperature or friction- it DOES burn in an open flame, but it won't coke (coking being that hard black crap that plasters hard parts and which is a result of burning minus o2- basically cooking).  our fellow poster would have noticed a problem, most likely, and due to sound, heat, pressure, smell- before that magnitude of damage would have occurred... there isn't a group 3 and very few group 4's that can handle that.  any group 5 could.  

that is recent and discussed at length on this forum.  and is a prime example of lack of oiling causing considerable damage.  

any questions?  ~snark~..... 

69fastback

I have a flat tappet cam in my car, which shows you shouldn't make assumptions in your statements. You're assumptions show maybe you shouldn't involve yourself in things that you don't know or understand. I'm willing to bet I've built a very large percentage more engines than you, and my knowledge and success with them is just fine. Gather facts before making statements next time. 

And as as far as you last paragraph, you're assumptions about what might have happened with a different oil, are irrelevant. Internet post carnage mechanic'ing is always fun to read. Thanks for that. 

Its hard to ask question when you don't even have the facts ~more snark~

212rowboat

we're in a boating forum.... how many flat tappet engines has Rinker put in their boats over the last twenty five years?  

go elsewhere for your peeing contests and snark. 

people like you are why i wished the interwebby wasn't anonymous.  you talk bold and pisy hiding behind your keyboard. if you didn't hold your tongue in person, i'd quickly offer to assist you with that endeavor.  

69fastback

What does that have to do with the explanation of why I had to explain why I run VR1 in MY car?  Was it ever said to run it in a boat?  Maybe you should go back and read how you made the accusation that I didn't know what I was talking about, and stated mentioning ZDDP undermined my knowledge, before you accuse me of engaging in a "pissing match." Funny how YOU point that finger. Hypocrite 

now, to review, first YOU claimed VR1 was an expensive alternative, so in an effort to correct you, I knew the question, "why would you not use regular Valvoline, if it's fine for everything else," would come up, so I just beat it, by explaining why I used VR1, which is because of the high ZDDP levels. After that, you made a very uniformed assumption, flat out saying it undermined any knowledge I have, which on the contrary, it was the opposite. Once I Called you out on that, you get all pissy (pretty hypocritical), and tell me to leave. You sir, shouldn't make assumptions, and this wouldn't have happened. Just because I'm not closing in on 2000 posts, doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. 


Now back to my point. Some people seem to think running a conventional oil will some how reduce your engine life. Who here has had their engine life reduced, due to using a conventional oil? Anyone?

69fastback

Nice internet tough guy edit there. You've taken your assumptions about me to a new high school level. You make incorrect assumptions, and since you made such statements and were wrong, now you claim that somehow things would be different in person, and openly claim to get physical about. You sir, are quite a man. who knew oil was so serious!? 

212rowboat

i never addressed VR1 at all except to say that it's formulation has changed constantly just like every other oil has (and is constantly). 

you may want to do some research about your ZDDP. unless you're adding it..... here is a good spot to start

show me, oh great and powerful, where i've disagreed about using any kind of oil or with your last statement at all?   the 'white coats' have done the work for us, I'm pretty sure i went to great lengths to communicate.  

post counts?  could care less.  it would be better if they didn't display... snark?  you're full of it.   you're using it in err, and diverting from your lack of basis. 

69fastback

212rowboat said:

69fastback said:

F1100 said:

After 16 years of racing, and owning a race shop, I can safely say that oil additives and the "oil debate" is mostly bunk.

In most cases the case of failure on engines is not any sort of wear factor, its a mechanical failure. Not caused by friction of any sort, but by exponential rotational forces usually by to much torque on a gear set, or by over revs.

I had lots of competitors doing "oil analysis" tests, and testing various synthetic oils, and in a vast majority of cases it was totally a waste of money. Since the engine or transmission failed mechanically and not due to a long term use issue.

You would be better off to use a regular oil, and change it at a normal interval, and ensure the engine revs are kept in check, and any sort of drive train shock. That would go vastly farther to ensure engine life than any particular brand of oil or engine or fuel additive. In my experiance.

EXACTLY!


i see these great oil debates on every forum. I've built racing and street/strip engines most of my life, and I always tell people that regular oil changes are far more important than the type of oil you put in. Conventional or synthetic.....doesn't matter. Just keep it changed. I've never seen an engine fail do to the type of oil that was used. I use Valvoline VR1 conventional oil in my race car. Not synthetic. 

a racing oil- one intended for racing- such as redline just to yank one out of the hat, is as good a lubricant and capable of resisting heat as anything made- it is a grade 5 ester based oil and freakin' expensive,  

 Okay....here's where I show you. VR1 is a racing oil. 


And and my last statement has been my basis all along. The rest has just been you being a hypocrite, I suppose. I don't care about white coats. I care about what I've seen in engines I've built, ran, and torn apart. Sometimes (Actually a lot of times), things don't translate from white coats to real world. NOTHING on the Internet will ever supersede real world results, seen with ones own eyes and hands. 

raybo3

Everyone on this forum can have an opinion. That is what makes this forum great. So lets keep it to that and only that. There really is no need to insult anyone. So lets be a little more tactful on how we "talk" to each other and stop the name calling. Nobody wants to see that.......... 

212rowboat

it's pretty clear i was speaking about redline in particular... redline has little detergent in it. it doesn't need to disperse or emulsify.  it needs to lubricate and cool (and not burn up).  

your VR1 is not a part of that group.  it is a group 3 oil.  

Michael T

@69fastback. You might want to re-read my post. I said UNLESS a specialty "non synthetic formulation" has been ordered.

69fastback

212rowboat said:

it's pretty clear i was speaking about redline in particular... redline has little detergent in it. it doesn't need to disperse or emulsify.  it needs to lubricate and cool (and not burn up).  

your VR1 is not a part of that group.  it is a group 3 oil.  

Well, that's my mistake. I assumed (dang, that dreaded word again) that when you quoted me where I referenced a racing oil, that you were replying to the oil I mentioned, and I read past the group 5 designation. My apologies for my mis interpretation. 

69fastback

Michael T said:

@69fastback. You might want to re-read my post. I said UNLESS a specialty "non synthetic formulation" has been ordered.

Gotcha. 


Hey, I like that edit where you removed the remark where you clearly insulted me, all while scolding people for slinging insults. More hypocrisy in this thread, and it's becoming borderline comical. I can only think maybe you took your own advice and took those reading lessons and saw where the first insult was handed out, and it didn't come from me. I admitted in my previous post that I mis read where he wasn't including the oil that he quoted me referring to. No edit needed to remove my comments. 

Michael T

@fastback69, it does seem like you are pretty fast on the post then have to come back with the retraction? Maybe you should self edit too?

69fastback

Nah. I made a oversight when I read his post. I'll own that, and don't need to retract anything. The only reason I edit a post is to add to it, or correct a typo. I try to be a stand up enough person to stick to what I say, and whether you like what I say or not is up to you, and of no concern to me, but I'll never hide behind the edit to retract what I've said. 

Michael T

...well I edited it because I didn't want to sound like you...that is, like a pompous a$$.

69fastback

Lol.....I already knew you were, and it still makes you the hypocrite you are, so you could have just left it. This internet is serious business, and a lot of times there's no winning for people who don't fit into the clique and post 10 times a day. A person with practical experience can never win a battle of mechanics with an Internet mechanic, on the Internet. Just google it! LOL

if you, or anyone else, is ever in Texas, feel free to stop by. We can go into the shop, have a beer, and look at a few things. I've got a 351 torn down in there right now, from a neighbors farm truck that's never had anything but penzoil 10W30 in it. It just clicked over 300,000 miles and dropped a valve. Bearings look great! Have a nice day sir, and get some lotion on that thin skin. 

raybo3

Again lets stop the BS. No need for it. Who gives a flying crap what you think about oil. OK I said it!!!!!!!! As of now this thread is closed..... Nuff said!