Anyone install a ATL Fuel Bladder in a 270 Fiesta Vee?

jmichels

drained tank, cut open top 1/3 of tank, removed all baffles and sanded interior of whole tank and prepped for bladder.
Started install today and removed sending unit, fuel plate and all foam. Was able to squeeze it in there but not easily and not perfectly lined up inside old tank. No way in **** I can reach all the way in to put all the foam back. Was thinking maybe spray the **** out of the old tank with silicone spray and spray outside of bladder with silicone spray and put as much foam as I can fit in there while its out and then try and squeeze it in and put in piece by piece of foam and slide it back as I put em in. Thoughts? This is turning out to not be so easy as many claimed.  Will silicone harm the bladder material? Didnt think it would as pretty much harmless to any material. Any input from previous installs appreciated. Need to get this baby in the water!!!

randy56

silicone caulking and rubber do not mix, it's a no no , so silicone spay maybe the same.  I'm not sure what the answer is.  And I know you don't want to wait till Tuesday to ask the people you bought it from. Maybe do a search. What year is your 270?

jmichels

Silicone spray not caulk

jmichels

2003 270 FV

randy56

I knew you were asking about spray, Don't know but it's still silicone, Dang I have the same boat, and the tank rotted out?  Did you have to cut half the floor out to get to it. It's under the aft bed, Man their is no way to get the tank out.  what do you think caused the failure? Feelin your pain, I don't want that.

jmichels

got quick response from one of the engineers that built the tank and said that he believes it was made from 854-B material and therefore would be fine with the silicone spray but he is going to double check tuesday. 

Ya my tank rotted out on the bottom and developed a slow leak over the winter. So I had to drain it all out and then cut open the top of the tank, remove all baffles inside and grind everything down smooth from the baffles and skim coated some areas with a metal filler where they were rotting through on the bottom.  It would be nightmare to replace the tank with a aluminum one as you would have to remove the motor, cut the bulk head and cut a hole in the floor of the aft cabin too. I went this route to try and eliminate all that. Just need to figure out how I am going to get the foam back in there. I have a few ideas and will know soon. If your tank is from same year Id watch out. 

andyd

I know you are trying to save money, but I don't think this is the way to go vs. a new tank. I understand you are reluctant to spend the money necessary for a new tank because it's a big hit financially, I feel your pain. However consider these points. Removing the engine is a fairly simple proposition and not that time consuming. You've already cut into the floor of the aft cabin. So you've avoided cutting the bulkhead, that's not that big of a further step to take. Heavy duty replacement tanks can be custom built for under $700.

Doing this job the way you describe will result in owning a boat with a leak fixed in the tank perhaps, but what is the resale and insurability going to be? A brand new tank actually makes an older boat more desirable at resale because you aren't going to have to worry about it for another 10 years at least if it's done right. A fix like you are describing will have the opposite effect on the value of the boat, and with full disclosure make it difficult or impossible to sell, in my opinion.

Andy

randy56

I hope the engineer lets you use it. It was wise to contact him. What about pam, -like you cook with? Put 7.4 hours on the boat this week end afterwards I checked for fuel leaks, no problem so far, 

bigal6030

Wow that a big job. What's the deal? Did the older boats have steel tanks? I believe my 2006 has an aluminum tank

jmichels

Andy

Boy you are off on a lot of aspects. With all due respect let me bring you up to speed. 

1) the money it cost to get a custom built bladder versus a new tank is almost the same. The new bladder is double the cost of the aluminum original tank however eliminates the labor or removing the motor, cutting the aft cabin floor, carpet, bulk head etc. So its a wash. Rather spend more money on a quality bladder that will not rot out versus another aluminum tank.  You should read up. Check out ATL Bladders. They are military grade and used in boats, helicopters and many types of things. They are not considered a down grade from a aluminum tank. Rather the opposite. 

2) I have taken motors of of my previous boats more then 6-8 times. So yes I am very familiar with the process. Takes me about 2 hours to disconnect all wiring , hoses, etc and unbolt mounts and rig harness and about 2.5 to reinstall. Plus hour to take drive on and off. I didnt want to go through that again. If I did I would end up going through everything and replacing the coupler, gimbals, bellows etc. Not time for that yet. 

3) The floor in the aft cabin was not cut or touched, just the exposed portion in the engine bay. 

4) Not sure where you got your pricing from but a tank built to exact specifications as the existing 100 gallon tank from the exact same company still in business , Florida Marine Tank is $1400. If you can should be a proposal for a complete tank for $700 I think everyone would jump on that wagon. 

5) Lastly a New fuel cell bladder is the same or better then a new aluminum tank. The fact is it now has a brand new tank, sending unit and connections . Both tanks are rated for marine use and USCG approved. So resale value is increased for having a new tank. 

I appreciate your input however I think you should defer before making a post without having all the facts straight . Some of the most high dollar vessels and air crafts utilize bladders. 

jmichels

Randy 56

Thanks for the input. Good idea on the pam spray. thought about that too like vegetable oil. The engineer got back to me and told me where to find the material composition printed on the bladder. Once I found it it was indeed. 854-B so therefore I could put on as much silicone spray as desired. 

After arm wrestling with it for a few hours this morning its finally in ! Going to fill it tommorow. Thanks for the suggestion.

randy56

I've had it happen on my house boat years ago, but a couple 50 gal tanks were easy to replace in a 14 ft wide with a couple 4 bangers in there, and I replaced with plastice ones, the tanks were about 12 years old at the time, also seen on freinds boats bottom rotted out. aluminum tanks? we all have them, makes you wonder why they use them.

BellevilleMXZ

jmichels said:

Randy 56

Thanks for the input. Good idea on the pam spray. thought about that too like vegetable oil. The engineer got back to me and told me where to find the material composition printed on the bladder. Once I found it it was indeed. 854-B so therefore I could put on as much silicone spray as desired. 

After arm wrestling with it for a few hours this morning its finally in ! Going to fill it tommorow. Thanks for the suggestion.

Any pics? Would love to see this being done.

jmichels

Ya I guess in perfect world aluminum is supposed to hold up 25 plus years. When I cut it open rest of the tank looked perfect but the bottom had several holes that had rotted straight through. But I saw where it went bad. The salt water would get trapped under the tank and eventually rotted it out. The stringers didnt allow for proper drainage. I also saw that the cup holder drains all ran out onto the floor and eventually made it right the original fuel tank opening and then got under the tank. I saw that today and re routed them all away from that area and straight into the bilge. 

jmichels

belleville

sure ill add some tommorow. Unfortunately didnt take as many as I should have . Ill see what I can dig up. Was quite a task to cut open the tank and hardest part was removing the internal baffles and grinding down all the welds smooth and put apoxy filler over any voids.

jmichels

"epoxy" typo

andyd

@jmichels I just expressed my opinion which is based on my experience. Sorry if you didn't find it helpful, but others on here might. You have confidence in the repair you are doing, great. I stand by my opinion that at resale this will hurt the value of the boat as I'm sure you'll fully disclose to the buyer that you inserted a bladder into the rotted out original tank and had to go on an online forum to get advice on how to insert the bladder without screwing it up. Your original post just sounds to me like the narrative of a dodgy DIY situation. This isn't confidence inspiring, but hey, it's your boat and you sound confident in your abilities.

Also, are you're saying you paid $2800 for the bladder? Wow, OK.

I got a custom replacement tank built, same dimensions as the original Florida Marine OEM tank on my FV250 except with double thickness aluminum at Berry's in Santa Ana, CA for about $700 a little over a year ago. These guys build tanks for commercial boats and have a stellar reputation.

Well good luck and I hope everything works out. What you are doing just wouldn't be how I would advise anyone else on this forum with a leaking tank to proceed.
Cheers,
Andy

andyd

My tank is 70 gallons, so a 100 gallon tank would be more, I'd guess under $1,000.

Also, did you ask your insurance company if this non-original fuel tank type installed the way you are describing is OK with them?
Andy.

rasbury

I started a thread on this some time back. I think I came across the same company but was going for a different use at the time until I saw similar posts with tank issues-glad to see it may have worked out if I need in the future for my 2005!

Cableguy Greg

Was the boat in salt water or fresh water? It seems the salt water boats have more of an issue with the tanks.

jmichels

andyd said:

@jmichels I just expressed my opinion which is based on my experience. Sorry if you didn't find it helpful, but others on here might. You have confidence in the repair you are doing, great. I stand by my opinion that at resale this will hurt the value of the boat as I'm sure you'll fully disclose to the buyer that you inserted a bladder into the rotted out original tank and had to go on an online forum to get advice on how to insert the bladder without screwing it up. Your original post just sounds to me like the narrative of a dodgy DIY situation. This isn't confidence inspiring, but hey, it's your boat and you sound confident in your abilities.

Also, are you're saying you paid $2800 for the bladder? Wow, OK.

I got a custom replacement tank built, same dimensions as the original Florida Marine OEM tank on my FV250 except with double thickness aluminum at Berry's in Santa Ana, CA for about $700 a little over a year ago. These guys build tanks for commercial boats and have a stellar reputation.

Well good luck and I hope everything works out. What you are doing just wouldn't be how I would advise anyone else on this forum with a leaking tank to proceed.
Cheers,
Andy

Did you replace your tank in your boat yourself? I am sure if you did not that was no cheap ordeal. The FV250 are even harder then the 270 due to more space confinements. 

A 70 gallon tank versus 100 is definately going to be a bit of a price difference. 

Did you fix the original problem of why your tank rotted out ? 

I am not looking for your approval on how to proceed with a tank install written by Andy. I asked for input from anyone that has gone with a bladder versus a aluminum tank. That would mean that you have no input to offer as you didn't go that route.  Therefore if you having nothing to offer then no point in discussing it further. 

BellevilleMXZ

Yow, all this tank talk scares the crap out of me!

Michael T

Me too, wait a minute I'm boatless :-(

jmichels

Alittle info on ATL Fuel Bladders.

Aero Tec Laboratories (ATL) of Ramsey, New Jersey, an AS 9100C registered company, manufactures extremely lightweight yet ultra rugged flexible fuel bladder tanks for the unmanned aerospace industry.

Many industry leaders such as AAI/Textron, Boeing, General Atomics and Raytheon, depend on ATL’s bladder tanks to fuel their unmanned projects and provide a lightweight, maximum fuel capacity alternative to rigid, or integral alloy tanks. These custom engineered rubberized nylon bladders safely accept gasoline, diesel, avgas, Jet A/B and all JP fuels. Specialized bladder materials are also available to resist many rocket and missile fuels including hydrogen peroxide, hydrazine, Otto Fuel II and HAN fuel.

ATL bladder tanks are fully collapsible for easy installation into tight and hard-to-access fuselage cavities and wing sections. Fully integrated fuel scavenging options such as sumps, baffles, surge-tanks, and weirs are available to prevent fuel starvation at near-empty conditions. ATL’s state-of-the-art machine shop can produce custom lightweight fittings and flanges to complete the ultimate fuel system. Because of its flexible construction, ATL bladder tanks are immune to shock, impact, vibration, launching, retrieval and even hard landings. Harsh environments are no match for ATL bladders as they can operate to 60,000 ft. within temperatures of 200°F (95°C) and -60°F (-50°C).

ATL prides itself on quick turn around and above all, quality. Modern CAD systems create soft tooling or "e-templates" which enable ATL to offer prototype bladders within 2 weeks, and ramped-up production within a month. Aero Tec Laboratories was presented with the General Atomics Predator award for quality and on-time delivery, as well as being recognized by AAI/Textron for outstanding support to the Shadow UAS program.

jmichels

hether manned or unmanned, ground-defense vehicles benefit significantly from ATL’s Safety Fuel Cell bladder tanks.  These tough, flexible fuel tanks deform on impact, suppress explosions with internal foam baffling, and can be coated for 7.62 self-sealing as well. Constructed of high-tensile rubberized fabrics, ATL’s fuel cell tanks cannot be dented, creased or vibration-cracked the way plastic and metallic tanks frequently are.

Automatic “upside-down” valves prevent fuel spillage in an overturn or collision, while internal “scavenging” systems allow fuel consumption down to the last drop.

As mentioned above, ATL’s fuel cells are filled with “safety-foam baffling” (per Mil-F-87260A) to defeat fuel surge and “slosh”, segregate incoming debris, prevent explosion, and allow the bladder to deform on impact without rupture.

ATL’s rugged fuel cell tanks are also widely used in trucks and trailers to transport gasoline, diesel, JP4 and other fuels in support of mobile communication systems, refueling of other vehicles, feeding power generators and moving fuel safely to remote locations.

To learn more or inquire about how ATL can supply your manned or unmanned project with flexible, lightweight fuel bladders, contact an ATL Sales Engineer at 800-526-5330, email atl@atlinc.com, or visit atlinc.com.

randy56

I'm sorry I slowed you down on your repair, about the silicone spray. I just knew some types of rubber were not compatable.

raybo3

I knew someone who used a bladder in an old Bertram boat. Nothing but problems. He removed the old tank/bladder and installed an aluminum tank and all was well. His old tank was fiberglass. I do not know what kind or type of bladder he used....... Just say'n....

rasbury

Hey, we have to keep an open mind to new ways to do stuff- what might not have been possible or sound crazy a couple of years ago might well be the way to do it today. I'm very impressed by this repair and the repair is much further ahead of what I thought was available. I would do it to my boat in a hear beat vs. tearing it apart to do it with another tank that I know sooner or later will fail.

Dream_Inn

Well, I have to say, coming from an aviation world, I have no problem with the bladder tank idea.  I'd probably have it installed by a professional just because I've already dealt with the whole explosion thing and it's no fun. 

But, unfortunately I have no value to add.  Hope it works out well and please post pictures as it may help others out.

jmichels

raybo3 said:

I knew someone who used a bladder in an old Bertram boat. Nothing but problems. He removed the old tank/bladder and installed an aluminum tank and all was well. His old tank was fiberglass. I do not know what kind or type of bladder he used....... Just say'n....

Do you know what kind of issues he had and when that was ?

raybo3

I am not sure. I think it was a fuel delivery problem but like I said I am not sure. He was an older guy and has since left the club and sold the boat. This was when ethanol first came to our club so about 6 years ago.