Options
Categories
- All Categories
- 17 Non-Rinker Boats
- 3K General Boating Discussions
- 297 Rinker Custom Projects
- 136 Trailer & Trailering Discussions
- 477 Generator Discussions
- 172 Rinker Photo Gallery
- 365 Rinker Sport Boat Forum
- 3.9K Rinker Express Cruisers Forum
- 1.2K Engine Discussions
- 1.2K Electrical Discussions
- 666 Rinker Support Q&A
- 598 Rinker Marketplace & Classifieds
- 67 Rinker News & Updates
- 102 RBO Forum Archives
- 176 Region-Specific Questions
- 32 Canada
- 136 United States
Comments
I have averged ~ 5GPH and 3.5mpg so far, which IMO is pretty friggin good for a 6k lb boat. Now, I pretty much get up on plane quickly and cruise at 3-3600rpm, so its pretty ideal fuel usage, but still you'd think it would be worse if it was running rich or in open loop for extended time.
I will say that the engine does run very smooth, but then again it always has. Since its so new I dont have any different running attitude to compare it to.
a side note on that, and only because I find this so dang fascinating: fuel sync is the measurement of ~when~ to spray.. in most EFI engines, it is a function of the distributor much the same way old engines used the distributor for ignition timing.. ignition timing is now exclusively controlled by the PCM, and twisting your dizzy won't do anything but jack up your fuel sync.. it is the relationship between the camshaft dictated valve events, and the firing of individual injectors..
Dodge discovered, either by accident (which is what I believe) or by really stoned and imaginative engineers that spraying the fuel just prior to valve opening allowed for two things: cooling of the valve by spraying it with fuel, and atomization of fuel for induction by it hitting the back of a hot valve just prior..
it was also discovered shortly after the introduction of 'four hole sprayers' that provided better atomization of the spray than they predecessor 'pencil stream' sprayers, that waiting a few degrees for that spray increased power and decreased consumption- so fuel sync was retarded instead of advanced..
I'm interested in how merc does it... Maybe Al will come along and do some 'splaining... there is logic in auto's, then marine logic.. one of the foundational things about marine engines is the delay in exhaust valve events, which make the exhaust pulses come out under slight compression- and so the flappers aren't open longer than they need to be, which could allow an engine to suck water in (extreme case) or momentarily sit there providing barrier for the exhaust pulse to clear.. I'm sure there are variances for marine engines on fuel sync similar to the variance for exhaust valve timing.. I just don't know what those are..
Boat Name: King Kong
"Boat + Water = Fun"
1. Zero error codes stored.
2. Injectors, fuel pressure, fuel maps, and everything else reported working correctly.
3. Computer is going from "start-up mode" (which I assume is what he calls open loop) in the correct timeframe, and all emissions sensors are reporting good.
4. All 8 plugs were pulled and look perfect.
So, what they want to do is switch to Mobil 1 fully synthetic 15W-50 and look again at the oil in another 10 hours. They also put on a new standard sized oil filter. They did a reset of the computer to see if any codes or faults are stored in the next 10 hours.
The service manager stated they have had MUCH better success with the Mobil 1 oil, and that they arent big fans of the Mercury Racing synthetic oil. They also think that maybe the larger oil filter doesnt have an anti-drainback valve, causing an artificially high dispstick reading.....?
At this point I really dont know what to think. I suppose that MAYBE the Merc oil isnt the best and isnt allowing the rings to seal and that the oil filter being almost a full quart of capacity is tricking me into thinking its got more oil in the crank than it does in operation. I dont know what else I can really do at this point because everything checks out ok. I dont doubt they did a thorough check of the engine sensors and diagnostics, and I've got everything in writing.
I will say that just on the 1/2 hour ride back to my marina that I noticed the oil pressure was about 5-10psi higher than before and it came up to temperature a little faster.
So, in summary they did an oil change and told me to come back in a month or two. LOL I will say they got it done quickly and started working on it right when they received it, so I at least wont miss the last couple nice weeks of summer for what HOPEFULLY is nothing to worry about.
I'll keep the thread updated as the next 10 hours progresses
Fram had a really bad time a few years ago, to the point dodge running cummins sent out a TSB informing dealers to cease using them, and swap every one that came for service with another.. it was due to the diaphragm failing, and starving the engine of flow, which is the same mechanism that performs anti drainback... This is the curious part of that: fram sued dodge/cummins and won, even though it was a proven faulty design... Dodge had to cancel the TSB as part of the lawsuit...
It pays in spades to be able to afford huge staffs of attorneys, huh? Fram spends more in marketing and legal teams than they do in r&d, period.. for this reason I won't purchase anything made by them, and look for racor or royal purple instead..
Friend, royal purple filters are expensive... But like Amsoil is to oil, they are the best and without peer when it comes to filters...
Yes.. a high capacity filter failing to hold fluids will absolutely make an engine appear to produce oil... It's flat out the last thing I would have ever guessed, though... But, what about the fuel smell? Did you save some of it to send for analysis?
And I'm about to tweak some folks when I say this: I don't and never have trusted branded products, such as oil in this case.. the problem with it is the brand can change products and you'll never know it.. you think you're buying quality, and maybe you were, but now- its anyone's guess.. mobile, Amsoil, ect.. only front line brands and front line products for me, friend..
You may have been smelling combustion gas remnants in your oil, like I suggested in the other case...
By the way, and not meaning to be a pisser here, but wear and damage happens to engines at start up and the brief seconds afterward.. if you were starting that engine without oil in the filter you were bouncing metal on metal likely four to five .times the length of time a normal engine would. if that is the case, I'd certainly get that oil analysis, and I'd suspect you're running an engine with 20ish hours that has the wear of one nearing 100 hours...
I am going to send the oil for analysis, just for my information.
I REALLY dont think it was a faulty bypass valve, because I've had filters collapse and they all affected oil pressure almost immediately. My oil pressure has always been fine - 40psi cold, 25-30psi warm idle, and 60-70psi on plane and under load.
It could be combustion remnants in the oil, which would also explain how it got black so quickly, but that doesnt give me the warm & fuzzies for my brand new engine after only 16 hours on its first batch of synthetic oil.
I am planning on putting probably 4-5 hours on it the next week or two, so I'll have a better idea of whats its doing soon.
Hey Mark, I don't think your 350 is catalysed. Could the "fuel" smell you detect be unburned contaminants from prolonged idling that have not been burned-off after a period of cruising. I'd smell the oil after about 15 minutes at cruise with no idling. I don't think you'll smell the "fuel" odor then. If your oil colour, thickness and level hasn't changed it doesn't sound like fuel contamination to me. It doesn't take much fuel to visibly alter the oil colour and viscosity. I would also think that amount of fuel (overenriched) would be showing up on your plugs as deposits. MT
in your case, it seems the anti-drain back failed and allowed oil to return to the crankcase after pressure was relieved.. that may have something to do with the location of the filter, too..
it kinda makes it all make sense: your oil level was fine right after killing the engine (a few minutes after allowing the valve covers and valley to clear), but was NOT alright after sitting for a good bit..
where is your filter located?
one thing i'm going to do in the offseason is install a remote filter for the oil, as well as re-route a water separator and filter for the fuel.. I like those two critters to be easy to get to, and I love the mechanical anti-drain feature instead of relying solely on an soft valve in the filter itself.. there is notta wrong with having a bigger filter that can filter better/longer and not impede flow, but it better be valved correctly, or you'll be having issues like it sounds caused yours.. just my opinion, maybe..
your remnants could be simply a new engine seating rings.. especially if you had temp sender issues, as the engine wouldn't know to close loop, would stay in open loop operations, and would run rich perpetually until it could tell, via temperature, that it was g2g..
It is "upside down", meaning the oil will drain out of the filter if the anti-drain valve malfunctioned.
I dunno, I'm still skeptical of scape-goating a high dollar filter and writing it off as normal oil for break-in period. Not to say its impossible, but thats just alot of coincidences at once.
when that filter is empty, the pump has to replace the oil in it.. that takes a few seconds to prime..
most damage and wear to an engine happens at start-up. when there is no lubricant present- and when you started your engines, it took considerably more wear than one without a draining filter would..
things happen at once in that case: being in 'open loop', a lot more fuel is dispensed to the cylinders, and the cylinders have more blow-by present due to not being to temperature yet (expansion).. and.. there is no lubricant present during the first few seconds of the engine running..
it's not that a healthy engine has anything present to protect it from that 'dry' run during the first few seconds of operation either, but in your case (and if the filter drained), that harsh environment is prolonged...
I'd just about demand a leak down test of your engine- a dry compression test, a wet compression test, and a 'hold' on the cylinder during the compression cycle to see if there is any leaking of compression.. I doubt there would be any significant valve seat damage (leak down), but I would be pretty curious to see if there is more than a 10% difference between wet and dry..
And I dont think 15w-50 is way out of wack, I run it in my Mustang with great success. The higher "hot" viscocity is good for the bearings. The only real concern I have is the higher zinc levels and the catalysts. But again, its only going to be used for 10 hours so its more of a trial than permanent solution.
Marine oil only has slight advantage over other quality syn oil, in that it staves off h2o from mixing easily...
Look around, and you'll find diesel and marine oil are one and the same most often, having low phos and high zinc for engines that sit a lot.
I've used two things as a means to escape my entire life- anything mechanical where I can dive in and absorb how's and why's, and fix it, and playing music.. when I was in the sand box I volunteered as the units mechanic, which got me out of filling sandbags and burning barrels, but my little ulterior motive was a hiding spot where crap made sense... Same with music, because a person can make their own world in it...
I don't claim to know everything by a long shot, but I think I've got a good grip on internal combustion engines and compression engines... Turbines are a mystery, but only because I haven't got my hands on one... Yet... :-)
I'm on a Samual Adams oktober fest kick right now... But only because the harvest season is upon us.. soon, beer is abandoned for the happy pappy van winkle.. :-)
Wix makes my diesel lift pump filters, though its an airdog made pump.. wix is a lot better, based on opinions I've heard, than the ad. Racor is the only thing I'll use for the high pressure pump, though.. funny how something that simple matters, huh?
Always its the small things.. filters... Pressure rated caps for closed systems... Type and quality of oil.. five minutes of preventive maintenance.. that is usually the case when something goes off the tracks, but then there are the cases like Mark here has endured, when he's done everything right and still gets bitten..
Mark, here's me tipping my beer toward you.. most folks wouldn't have even noticed what you did, and I bet you saved yourself a ton of grief just by being diligent.. :-)
I'm Joe, but I guess I could pass for a Mark lol
Boat Name: King Kong
"Boat + Water = Fun"
So, its been about 14 hours of run time since they changed the oil, and it STILL was climbing the dipstick & started smelling like fuel again. It was also thinning.
I took it back to the marina and made sure that whatever the problem was fixed before I got the boat back. From day 1 after the temp sender was replaced I felt the engine ran too cool, as it would only get to ~140* on the temp gauge and NEVER got above it.
So, I stayed there while the dealer hooked up the laptop to see what it was reading. Right off the bat he could tell it was too cold, as the temp sender reading was barely hitting 100* even after idling for 5-10 minutes and there were multiple misfire codes. However, the analog gauge said it was at 140*.
The thermostat was suspected to be stuck open, so it was pulled. Low & behold it was the culprit, or rather some pebbles were. I really have been diligent in trying to make sure I stay out of shallow water, but there was once or twice I felt it bog down at idle speed in my marina where there is a shallow spot. Here's the evidence:
So, the thermostat was replaced, and the bypass also was stuck open, so that was cleaned up. I changed the oil so that it wasnt thinned out.
Here's the kicker: The temperature sending unit that was replaced at 10 hours was most likely malfunctioning since it was installed. It read 30 ohms different than my original sending unit (which somehow they still had on hand). The suspicion is that the original temp sending unit was never faulty, it just never moved above 100* because the engine never got warm enough with the thermostat stuck open.
So, after some investigative work I *think* we got it figured out. I'm pretty disappointed that the original service tech (not my dealer, a separate Merc certified service center) didnt see the misfires & low running temperature, as I put on another 14 hours running rich. In the end it technically was my fault, so lesson learned there. I wish I would have just trusted my instincts and pulled the thermostat myself right at the onset, and that's going to be added to my regimen of seasonal maintenance.
Hopefully this helps someone down the line.
I dont do much low/idle speed driving, so I'm sure it was getting at least warm when on plane, which is maybe 140-150*, but the gauge was reading that temperature even when in reality it was only 100* at idle.
I hope it didnt do any early wear to the catalysts, but I guess thats what a 5 year warranty is for.