Started then died...

rasbury

I think @PickleRick is on to something...I'm going to get out there am and pump and see what I get but I will wait to start until this arrives on Monday..end of the week I will fire it up and see! Thanks @PickleRick, will update results.
One update is I looked at my fuel tank- if I had wanted to remove the sender I would first have to figure out how to get the genny out without pulling the motor!

rasbury

I did get a outboard type prime bulb which worked perfect. About had a heart attack with the first batch- about a quarter inch of fuel to about 4" of water! I kept pumping and it cleared pretty quick- maybe 3/4 gallon and everything cleared. New filters. Heet or whatever it's called will be here tomorrow. I will get that in the tank and let that do its thing this week and Friday I will if it starts. I had the boar on an steep angle on the trailer so I'm sure that was worst case but there was a lot of water, and trash in there. Hopefully I got most of it and the treatment will get the rest. 

PickleRick

Sweet. Once you get get the heat in there toss on a new fuel filter and let it run a bit on some ear muffs.   

So long as your heet-water ratio is 1:1 or better in favor of the heet you'll no longer have any running issues if water was your only culprit.  

We're finding even pure gasoline aka non ethanol tests positive for ethanol.  Ethanol loves to absorb water from humidity in the air. 

rasbury

Already swapped out both filters...plus have an extra...Thursday I will crank her and see what happens...will update!

212rowboat

i'd be staring at the shift interrupt linkage and button as for the reason to die and not fire... and because guessing that separator was doing it's job.... that's not usually how these guys die unless it's got a lot of water in it.  

however.... 

wanna know how to get a LOT of water in the crankcase in a hurry?  leave a hose running on the stern flush with the engine not running.  it WILL defeat the inline valve and it WILL find the open valve on one or both of the heads, and fill er' up.  

the thing about overfill is the starter will act as if it's dying is there is enough overfill... trying to compress fluid.  

the reason i suggest a stuck shift interrupt button or misaligned linkage is that is what they sound like- they try to fire but they just won't.  cough, almost but not a real fire.  if you had enough water for it to just die instead of trail off coughing sputtering and then dying then you have too much water for it to 'try' to fire as you describe. 

edited to add:  these aren't sealed crankcases... you'll blow oil from various places in an overfill situation... it's 'slightly' overfilled that's a real problem that folks don't realize, and that's because the oil froths- little oil+air bubbles make a lousy lubricant.  you can wreck a good engine quickly by trying to lubricate with frothed oil... cam lobes usually go first, followed by cap bearings... and once that happens, you get a rock concert.. a spectacular rhythmic collapse of heavy metal- however brief- as things start flying from the block.  

rasbury

Thanks @212rowboat I don't think I hot that far- I pumped a crap load of water out of it. Will test tomorrow and hopefully he in the water am...

rasbury

Well...still is not starting ...sounded better, trying. There still has to be fuel in the system so will try in a few again as I may have flooded it...so checking for spark- old days I'd lay the plug against the block and turn it over: can I use a timing light to check for spark? I'll see what I might have to check fuel pressure..
.I have all sorts of accumulated crap...

So..I got some starter fluid and me and my buddy headed to the boat. Asked him to hold my beer whilst I got down there..jk- 

Did do that..it would start to run on the starter fluid..I hit the pressure release on the fuel rail and it looks like the fuel rail would be still full of water- which I guess should have been expected...so,

How do I get the fuel in the fuel rail out? Can I remove the valve and hook a fitting up, crank it and pump it out? Suggestions @PickleRick if you can get from under that Toyota?

PickleRick

I wouldn't crank the motor while pumping out fuel, a bit of a fire hazard there. 

But yes if the Schrader valve is removable on your set up and you can get a hose to fit snuggly over the port with a hose clamp for safety you can use that to pump the water out of the fuel rail.


In such situations I usually make a jumper wire with two male spade ends to activate the fuel pump via fuel pump relay.  

Make sure to have a helper keep the fuel hose in the container catching the gas when you activate the fuel pump, she'll have a little pressure to her. You don't want to send fuel all over your bilge. 


We use non chlorinated carb cleaner to fire off engines all the time and run them  using small squirts until we pull through the last little bit of water in the system.  We don't attempt to start a Kawasaki twin engines below 40 degrees without a little hit of carb cleaner.    We also start quite a bit of small intake fires.  I wouldn't recommend this on a boat!     It does work but like I said, we start a lot of small fires.  Easy to put out on an all metal machine with no damage done but I'd crap my pants if I did it in my boat.    The issue with water is, it tends to make an engine more likely to back fire and carb cleaner/starting fluid is very flammable.   


Safety first!!!

rasbury

Yes, well..too much for sure does a back fire! Will work on pulling that fuel out...it ran a little so it is firing, needs good fuel.

PickleRick

Oh and your question about using a timing light to check for spark, yes that's a good way to check for spark.  The timing light only lights when it sees spark. 


Good luck!  

Sounds like you've almost got it.


I'm actually done with the Toyota.  I did have some mods/bugs to work out but she's been a daily driver since @ October.  


Just got word my Mercedes om60x to zf4hp24 land rover transmission adapter is completed and will be shipping soon.  So my next build is about to start.  As of now my kid playing hockey has been taking up all my spare time. 

rasbury

@PickleRick is that valve removed with a regular tube type valve remover or did merc come up with a special tool? I will get the valve out and cycle the ignition on and off until it comes clean...but sure don't want to ruin that valve...

PickleRick

I couldn't tell you.  The only inboards I have access to have carburetors, or diesels. 

PickleRick

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PickleRick

Looks like a handy tool to drain the fuel from the rail without risking damage to the valve.


Played hockey this morning then had a family dinner, sorry I couldn't search that earlier. 


A local hot rod shop may have one of those on hand. 

GMSLITHO

Rick are you in a mens league for hockey all 3 of my boys played and 2 now play in a mens league one in Colorado and my youngest in ny my youngest one just got hired as a assist coach at West Point for the upcoming season I can’t wait to go watch the games 

PickleRick

Double post

PickleRick

Double post 

PickleRick

I'm not currently playing any beer league hockey.  I play the occasional pickup game, most of my ice time is with the kid.  He played a bit when he was younger, didn't stick with it.  Now he's almost 15 and all he wants to do is hit the ice.    He's still at a beginner level so I skate with him at least twice a week.  Not quite ready for 16u.  Got the height but not the weight or legs yet.  Hope in a year or so he's ready for league play.   He  can't wait to hit 18 so we can play beer league together.  

rasbury

OK, so I was able to get a little stuff out, about half water. I used a fuel pressure gage that has a hand held relief valve- so as I turned the key it built up pressure I could release and get fuel out. Where there is water it looks like something growing in the water? Anyway it seemed to get clogged and stopped releasing the fuel. Can't imagine what is in the injectors...so @PickleRick how do I make that jumper to run the pump? Or is there something else I can disconnect so that when I turn the motor over it will pump but not fire?

PickleRick

Do you know where the fuel pump relay is located?   Once located remove it.  Using a multi meter identify which spade of the relay base is 12v constant and which is the wire feeding the fuel pump power.  Jumped these two.   If you cannot find constant power use a wire directly to the battery pos terminal.  

rasbury

@PickleRick I'm concerned I will screw up the pump- is there something in the ignition I can disconnect so the pump works but does not fire?

212rowboat

rasbury said:

@PickleRick I'm concerned I will screw up the pump- is there something in the ignition I can disconnect so the pump works but does not fire?

that thing primes and finds a specific pressure then dies... during operation it's running pretty much all the time.  leverage that as picklerick is saying by not allowing it to build pressure- either remove the valve inside the Schrader connection or just keep it depressed... if it's just depressed whatever junk is in there will have to come out of a tiny passage, whereas if you remove the valve it'll likely just pass on through into whatever you're catching it in.  

rasbury

Thanks @212rowboat- the stuff I did get out did not look good so...I did order the fitting that @PickleRick suggested.  There has to be something in the ignition I can disconect so the engine won't fire? If it needs more than a good solid crank to get to clean looking fuel then I have more issues with 75 gallons of fuel than I want to think about....

aero3113

Why don’t you just pull the coil wire?

rasbury

Well, that is what I was thinking- I did recently replace cap, roter and wires etc but could not remember how it all got the juice- 

aero3113

It’s the shortest wire on the cap, connects to the coil.

rasbury

Will it arch or anything removed?

PickleRick

When possible I remove the power feed to the coil as an unplugged coil has the power to reach out and touch someone or anything close enough to act as a ground. 


When you get the pleasure of being the chosen ground you curse in languages you've never spoken before. 


 

rasbury

Does not sound pleasant. 

rasbury

I think I was able to get the last of the bad fuel out of the fuel rail. So I close it off try to crank it sounded like it wanted to turn it on. I drained the fuel rail again and it seemed clean. So I tried again but it's still not firing like it wants to start. These are new plugs and wires plus cap and rotor. If the water is really gotten in those cylinders but it mess up the spark plugs? Other thought is my injectors are all plugged with perhaps some crap. I'll let it sit a while and then try to crank it again as I probably flooded it out I'm sure.