The lets talk about boat noises and I/O pontoons thread :)

PickleRick

Jump in and spear some of those snapper!!

Willhound

Sooo....did that guy not see the marker for the shoal?😆

YYZRC

J3ff said:

Not one person here would turn those bolts?! I'm so tempted, just to see if 1/4 turn results in less noise.  

I would but I’m not the sharpest tool in the shed. 

J3ff

212rowboat said:

that input shaft of the drive is tempered- it will snap after little deflection, hence the use of the cordan joint (double ujoint)... the coupler 'may' absorb the angle... the biggest problem i would foresee, in all honesty, is the drive won't come off without some pretty stiff influence- it will be bound.  

i mentioned it before- not all gimbal assemblies are in the precise same spot on transoms.. unless the maker used a stencil, which most do, or a mold, which most do too, those things aren't precisely the same... it's akin to pick up trucks coming off the assembly line- look at the gap between the bed and cab on brand new trucks sitting side by side at the dealer, duplicate in every way except that gap.. it may be 1/8th more closed on one side than the other, or, a lot more than that.. it has to do with where the frame was tapped for the bushing, which isn't a precision (close, but not true precision) operation.. same with torsion bars- one may be set ever so slightly higher or lower... and it's the same with transom gimbal assemblies.  an 1/8th inch matters.  some boats eat bearings, some don't... some are easy to align, some are a PITA.. 

exercise: locate your placement of gimbal bearing in relation to the side of your boat- mark it.. use that as the 'pivot' point... now hold a broomstick or dowel to that mark parallel to the hull and where the mark meets the middle of the stick/dowel, and attempt to align it to the input shaft of the drive... take note of the angle- that is the angle your alignment should follow (roughly)... you will see the incline from the drive to the engine, but it shouldn't be a substantial incline... likely less than 15*... if you were to measure the distance from the gimbal to the front mount, you'll have a general idea how high those mounts should be.. .precise? NO... but.. ballpark.  

i'd wager a bushel that those guys simply didn't do a good alignment.. plain and simple.. and, it's not like it can be argued because the nuts on the mount were resting so high... if they DID try to align it, there is something wrong about the rear mounts which i brought up prior- there is NO alignment or adjustment in the rear mount... it is either 'right' or it 'isn't right'- there isn't an in-between. i still hold that rear mount suspect- i'm not there and can't see it, but it appears to me there is too much gap between the engine (couper/flywheel cover) tabs and the transom assembly's tabs... and that gap? accounts for the 'high rise' of those front mounts. 

Thank you 212, I feel armed with some great information thanks to you. I will push to have them pickup the boat next week and then want to meet and go through a bunch of the points you have brought up and go over them one by one. Starting with the rear mounts. I appreciate all of your advice on this! 

J3ff

Well, called the mechanic as planned, call went to voicemail and I got a text "I'll call you back" - guess I'm on my own. New gimbal will be here tomorrow, pulling the boat out tomorrow or Wed, will stay in my driveway till Sunday, going to attempt this on my own with the help of a neighbor..and a harbor freight mower lift. Guess it's time to get some tools together. 

Anyone have any thoughts on the tool needed to get the gimbal out and then back in? Harbor freight would be great since it'll be on the route tomorrow to stop at. 

How about a seal kit for the drive after removing it? 

Aqua_Aura

Did you get an alignment tool? You'll probably need a tool to pull the bearing and possibly to set it back in. For other  tools basic socket set should do it and probably some pliers to pull clips for cables. 

There is some good YouTube videos on the process of removal and install. 

J3ff

Aqua_Aura said:

Did you get an alignment tool? You'll probably need a tool to pull the bearing and possibly to set it back in. For other  tools basic socket set should do it and probably some pliers to pull clips for cables. 

There is some good YouTube videos on the process of removal and install. 

It's ordered... was hoping HF would have something that would work for pulling and replacing the GB. Will be hitting up youtube tomorrow for sure. Looks like the winds have shifted and storms will be no longer going up the coast, so it might be the right time to pull it and keep it out anyway. 

J3ff

YYZRC said:

J3ff said:

Not one person here would turn those bolts?! I'm so tempted, just to see if 1/4 turn results in less noise.  

I would but I’m not the sharpest tool in the shed. 

I'm glad there's at least two of us. Making moves to have this checked by Saturday. I swear if the bolt has to be moved down like 5 threads to make it work it's going to be a bit frustrating. 

PickleRick

You need a puller(i like the threaded one instead of the slide hammer) 

The alignment bar

And a driver to put the new gimball in.  Mine attaches to the alignment bar.

Some grease to check the splines

Some rtv for the mounting gasket

PickleRick

Get Amazon Prime free 30 day trial and order this

https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwjP-q-QyaTrAhUO28AKHbdQAfsYABAEGgJpbQ&ae=1&sig=AOD64_3GBtruUkgKVmAlwiOVbI_o1IesLQ&ctype=5&q=&ved=2ahUKEwi8yaaQyaTrAhUJxVkKHWZtCFUQwg96BAgJEBA&adurl=https://www.amazon.com/MBS-Mfg-Bearing-Installer-Mercruiser/dp/B07NCQ1TWN/ref=asc_df_B07NCQ1TWN/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=241968617653&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11696978226968345197&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9010649&hvtargid=pla-718024817997&psc=1

J3ff

Will do.. looks like the plan is changing as a storm is spooling up, boat may be out of the water for more than a week while these get going.

However a friend and I were bs'ing... and I realized something. I had taken pictures of the motor mounts when the motor was removed the first time. 

Rick and Rowboat and everyone else who said not to move them, great advice. You'll see they are almost in the same spot. 





So I guess I have to eat a little crow here and say "okay, it does look like they are around the same place they have been for the past 3 or so years when none of these problems were going on. 

HOWEVER.......on that same thought. The transom was also repaired/reinforced.. holes were filled in w/ epoxy and redrilled...and my guess would be that while it was close, maybe something isn't lining up like it should, coupled with possible with either a cheap gimbal going in (that I supplied) or no change of the bearing at all.. who knows..

Here's before:


And after:


Any thoughts? I have more pictures to post. 

J3ff

More pictures of the rear mounts for you 212, this is how they left it, exposed to rain, grime, etc... 

J3ff

@212rowboat what do ya think? Seems like when they re-drilled holes they of course weren't perfectly the same... right? Could have shifted the entire thing up or down, left or right, rotated it CCW or CW.... and without an alignment of course problems would pop up? 

aero3113

If it’s that far off though they would have an extremely hard time getting the drive on or not even be able to get the drive on.

Ian

But wouldn’t putting it all back need to do an alignment? I’m no mechanic but you pull all those bits out and it put back you’d have to align by default?

J3ff

aero3113 said:

If it’s that far off though they would have an extremely hard time getting the drive on or not even be able to get the drive on.

Right - I agree. However, exhibit A if you remember is this video. Fast forward to 13 seconds in. 

https://youtu.be/zvQry3NjH7I?t=13

I have the exact same noise. The guy who posted that video says it was WAY out of alignment. So here we have my drive with that noise and his drive with that noise. This means SOMEHOW two people were able to put the drive in and it is "way" out of alignment. I asked the guy how many threads he was out and he can't remember other than the fact that his was too low. 

Let's keep in mind the guy who posted it may have a different definition of "way" out of alignment.  Maybe his def. is 3 threads where ours is 6.. the point is the video clearly shows that the drive can be put on even with an incorrect alignment and it makes the same noise mine does. 

Listen to that noise and then listen to my noise. 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Sh6c4jeW6YTZqoXd9

Tell me that these are not the same noises.. 

PickleRick

Your new transom may have settled a bit causing a bit of an alignment.  On a brand new boat (not that i have ever had one) it's always checked in a short amount of time then the normal intervals there after.

The cheap gimball may also be failing.  

So many possibilities.

It may feel fine to the hands but roars under load.

Dont forget a new mounting gasket. I keep at least 3 on hand at all times. If i have only one im likely to rip it during install.

J3ff

PickleRick said:

Your new transom may have settled a bit causing a bit of an alignment.  On a brand new boat (not that i have ever had one) it's always checked in a short amount of time then the normal intervals there after.

The cheap gimball may also be failing.  

So many possibilities.

It may feel fine to the hands but roars under load.

Dont forget a new mounting gasket. I keep at least 3 on hand at all times. If i have only one im likely to rip it during install.

Whats that? I have this showing up tomorrow... https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001HBN1D4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

J3ff

icoultha said:

But wouldn’t putting it all back need to do an alignment? I’m no mechanic but you pull all those bits out and it put back you’d have to align by default?

Yes you would think that, but if you look at the threads in the pictures closely (mine are higher resolution) you can see that the bolts have not been moved from when the motor was out, till where they are right now this moment. 

PickleRick

That's the one.  It's paper on an alpha.  I didnt realize it was just o rings on a bravo.  Knock on wood im not pulling mine til fall

212rowboat

i'm confused so i'm gong to throw some thoughts at you stream of conscious... 

• when you pull an engine and replace it, you have to align twice... PITA yes but it's what you have to do... you set the engine in place WITHOUT the feet of the front mounts lagged to the block... WITHOUT... you DO mount the back of the engine to the transom assembly, as said before there is ONLY ONE WAY to do that- there is no 'close enough' or 'a little out'... there is right and wrong... then, you align.  when you're aligned, and here comes the painful part- you mark the location your lags are to be tapped, and then you move the engine out of the way.   THEN you tap the holes... then you place the feet onto the blocks and lag them down.. (an aside- I see in one of your pics the front lag is at an angle... you know how that comes to be? because the lags were driven in with the engine sitting on them)... now, you pick your engine back up, sans feet attached to the mounts, and hoist it in place- lowering it on the bolts.  if it's right? it slips right down atop them... then, you reattach the BACK mounts- the only proper way that can be. 
• those mounts COULD be that high in the front and still be right... that's the reason why they're that tall.... 
• i still hold your rear mounts suspect. 
• when glassing and tapping a new ring in you'd want to avoid the pre-existing holes, so 1/8th inch out is unrealistic- you'd be at least an inch out to avoid the pre-existing (now filled and glassed) holes... however, there isn't near as much wiggle room back there as you think.  I'd wager they went right back through the same holes, and i wouldn't blame them. 
• GB's go bad.. true.. they usually go bad due to bad angle- duh... the alignment is the chief contributor to that, but so is trim... running at an extreme angle, even briefly, can wreck a GB.  For this reason I always set the trim limit a full 1/2" shy of the (already conservative) measurement Merc offers. 
• you can get a drive on a badly aligned engine... don't ask me how i know this, but... I know this... the trouble with it is- the person doing it KNOWS it's out because it usually requires using the threads of the mounting studs to pull it in.  and... playing with the trim angle can fidget it in... just like the alignment rod, the drive input shaft (once the splines are aligned) slides right in on a proper alignment.. there is no arguing, there is no leveraging... you get the right height off the ground- you wiggle the cardon joint to fit it while you adjust the side to side up and down angle of the drive- and when it's right? all you have to do is lean on it and it slips right in. 
• i hate swapping GB's.  there is a tool to pull it out made by merc, and mine has seen way too much use to be honest.  mostly with swapping engines, and since i'm there- why not? ... this tool is indispensable when you've done it without it... mines is a rusty mess right now because i lost a roof in a hurricane over that tool shed... but it still works better than any alternative.  tapping one in is a LOT easier than pulling one and not damaging other things. 
• i'll say again: the rear mounts are either right, or wrong.. there is no in between.
• the front mounts are known to settle- this is why i have found it important if not crucial to ALWAYS align by raising the engine, NOT lowering.  the engine can hang up on a thread- a single thread will support the 650# of the engine believe it or not- and it WILL settle 'down', and there goes your alignment... RAISE the engine to alignment (lifting with the bottom nut of the mounts threads), don't 'drop' it to align.. it WILL hang up.
• alignment adjustments are better measured in degrees if not mills- a 1/16th turn MATTERS... it sounds silly, but it DOES. 
• for the love of all that's Holy, get a helper... brief them on the procedure and explain it- then set them INSIDE the boat with wrench in hand.  you don't do anything to one side without doing it to the other- though you may find yourself turning one side 10* and the other 15~20*.... 
• this is painful- not as painful as pulling the engine the second time as described above, but painful nonetheless:  Tune PAST perfect alignment... when it's perfect and you think it's perfect, keep tuning until you're out of alignment in the opposite direction... this is how you are certain.  then, drop the engine back down again in certain ONE revolution of the bottom nut on both sides.. work back up in measurable increments until you're perfect again.... then and only then cinch down the top nut.  bend over the tabs to lock it.  drink a freakin' beer.    

J3ff

All of your points make sense. I especially understand the last one. At this point I had to deal with the drunk ramblings of mechanic #2 and mechanic #1 is MIA. I ordered the tool that rick linked to and have 2 guys who are willing to help out. I also have a friend from back home that removed both of his engines, installed new transom assemblies and overhauled everything in his engine room this past winter. He mentioned many of the same points you did, raising, not lowering, having the engine suspended first.. etc. That will be tough. 

Going to pull the boat tomorrow no matter what and park it for a bit. Wait for the tools to show up. It needs to be fixed by Oct 1st, so hopefully that's enough time to get down this road. 

Thank you for your invaluable advice. I'll be re-reading it tomorrow to make sure I understand 

J3ff

Do you live in the south 212? It's getting to the point where it'd be worth paying you a daily rate + hotel and travel! 

PickleRick

How deep is your canal?  

J3ff

PickleRick said:

How deep is your canal?  

Not deep at all. But that's why I'm moving sept 1st. Place I'm going means I'll never touch the trim. 

PickleRick

Do you not tirm up when dropping anchor at the sand bars?  

Im thinking your shallow waters plus cheap gimball.  

Not much of a way to avoid the shallows in the keys unless you have a dingy hanging behind your boat.  

aero3113

@J3ff also said earlier he tilts up to get in because of a rock at the mouth of the canal.

J3ff

Haven't taken the boat to the sand bar, but yes I'll approach the Rock, shift to neutral and then float over it as I raise the drive and lower it.. Then when it's down I put it back into gear

YYZRC

I think disappearing mechanic #3 did you a favor. 

Is there a Merc certified large (professional) marina near you? It sounds like you keep relying on shadetree mechanics where you have no recourse if/when things go wrong. I hate paying the marina rate for labor but I know in doing so I have at least some recourse if needed. I do understand that you moved cross-country. 

I also think you should stop buying parts and let the marina supply and install. Again, you will pay a bit more but it’s their responsibility to get it right. 

Handymans342

Yeah but he is running out of money