Auto bilge circuit

rasbury

If you read some of the later what did you do to your boat today...I stepped on the rear bilge pump...got a new one snipped and install the new...hit the bilge switch at the helm and it worked...tried the float to test it and nope! So, figuring I just screwed it up, bought another and just twisted the wires to test and nothing..those two wires should be hot all the time right,? Just an on off switch? When I installed the pump I did not pay any mind of which two wires went to the pump..I'm guessing it does matter? I checked the mid ship and it's fine. I checked the fuse panel at the helm. It has one for front and back
 At the wires I have no power..
Any idea.:

YYZRC

Did you check the breaker to make sure you didn't trip it when you were removing/installing?  On my boat there's a bilge pump breaker at the stern of the boat in the DC panel.

Rich_

So you have a non-automatic 2 wire pump, a separate float switch, and a manual helm switch? And the float switch will not turn on the pump? Have you checked for continuity through the float switch?

rasbury

@YYZRC my main breakers are below the steering wheel. My panel at the battery switch has a few more but nothing there popped or suspect with that circuit. @Rich_ I did not- need a battery for my meter but it is new and would have to assume it is good. I guess the fuse could be bad, I can pull it and check for power but I'm going to switch the wires at the pump as all of that is intertwined in ways I am sure I would never understand..my mid ship went bad...I had a bilge leak and would run the pumps nanually- one without water did not make it and both are on the same manual switch at the helm..will try in a few...

Rich_

Normal simple setup- Negative wire from the pump to negative battery (or negative bus bar). The positive on the pump will have two wires tied to it- one from the float switch and one from the helm switch. The other side of the float switch should have 12+ through a fuse. 

Could be float switch fuse, wiring from battery + to the float switch, or the switch itself.

rasbury

It was not set up that way- I have 4 wires and there is a red and black on the pump matched up properly so I saw no need to switch. I have two more wires in the same harness and those are the same color...I'm a little bad on colors but you can see from these pictures @Rich_ 6the two wires from the float and the two wires for the pump. They were taken apart separately so no way they got mixed up.....now I'm for sure stumped. 
 First picture is the float switch and the bottom is the pump wires....I don't see any other place a fuse could be other than the breaker at the helm...

aero3113

Is it possible that your new pump is automatic and will only turn on by itself when it senses water?

aero3113

My mid bilge pump is like that, I think it checks every so often for water. If no water it doesn’t pump but I can turn it on at the helm with the switch.

rasbury

Wow @aero3113..that would be fancy- mine just work on the floats. If there is enough water to trip the float the pump runs....the wiring diagram gor the float shows a 3 position switch- on, off and auto. My helm switch is only on and off and that seems to work. The automatic is supposed to run as long as their is juice in the battery no mater if the battery switch is turned off- which is a lot of wiring I don't get nor have a diagram for.

rasbury

@aero3113 the new pump is the old style that does not have a built in float...I also rechecked my panel- it also shows breakers in the panel at the battery switch. Why would there be redundant breakers?

YYZRC

Ras there should be three wires to the pump. Two positive one negative. Grab a voltmeter and test for positive with the helm switch off. One of the two positive should have power at all times when the battery switch is on. If not, you have a fuse problem. 

Rich_

Troubleshooting over the internet is difficult. Just to confirm-
There is a brown and a black coming out of the pump.
The two gray jacketed wires you took a pic of on top of the heat exchanger- Are there two wires in each of those? And these both go to the helm?
On the float switch- there are two black wires coming out of the float switch?

Rich_

Simplistic approach
How to wire a bilge pump | ON-OFF bilge switch | New Wire Marine

Not sure how universal Rinker did their wiring but could be similar
Bilge pump runs all the time - 2006 Captiva 246 — Rinker Boat Company (vanillacommunities.com)

rasbury

Guys, I hear what your saying..at one point, all this worked the way it is wired as I pulled the pump out, cut two wires, one black and one brown which were both disconnected and then reconnected. I did not have the float disconnected at this point. I bought the float the next day and disconnected the other 2 wires and re connected those- they look to me as the same color which is kind of a gray. I have not wired in the float yet so I can cross those wires which should activate the pump but it does not and there is no power going through those wires...since it appears I have breakers for the helm and the panel at the battery switch has breakers for each pump, all that intermingling of power is happening in those wires somewhere..some how. I can, but should not, expect this is anything to do with the helm switch as it is only on or off, no position to put it in automatic mode...

rasbury

@Rich_ the gray wires (2) are for the float switch...the helm is a whole bundle of wires away....if it were a simple on off with an inline fuse be a whole different program- I have 4 breakers for two pumps both with automatic pumps that should run as long as there is juice in the batteries...something going on somewhere. I have not done anything with any wiring other that I have my trip pump disconnected. I looked at the other midship pump and it is wired exactly the same as I described. There is somewhere in the system somewhere astray. I'm remembering now the last time I had a hose leak the auto bilge did not come on...

Rich_

If the automatic switch did not work prior to this, best is to get out a volt meter or test light to see what wires are constant +12v, switched +12v, and -12v.

YYZRC

If you don’t have +12v at either of the wires to the pump with the helm switch off, remove the breaker panel at the stern and verify that the connector didn’t come off the back of the breaker. 

Highly unlikely that you have a break in the wire somewhere, especially if you haven’t been messing around with anything electrical recently as you say. 

rasbury

That sounds reasonable ...I will check that tomorrow...thanks! That was what I was thinking, I just don't have the electrical experience...but soon will apparently.

rasbury

Oh my @YYZRC I opened up the panel and really had quite the shock. I'm going to attach some pics of the two breakers and the wires involved with those two breakers. A lot of the same color wires jumping all over. The second from the right on what would be the bottom of the panel installed. That is the forward bilge breaker, the next to the left of that is the aft...there are wires common to the two breakers and attempted to draw where the wires went- none of the wires at the breakers are the solid color wires going to the float. Looking like something way over my head unless there are a few simple checks I can do...
In in between the two bilge breakers are these two diodes  which really has me scratching..

Rich_

Think of diodes as a one-way street. Power can only flow through in one direction. Not saying for sure how it is wired, but the diodes could be preventing current from flowing to the float when the manual switch is on (or the manual switch when the float is on)

rasbury

@Rich_ the front posts of those go to the breakers for the battery chargers so not related per say - I checked both breakers on the back side of both and there was no power registering on either- but the front float switch works so not sure if that indicates a problem or not. I really need a wiring diagram and someone that knows how to read it! I see in my sketch also the brown/orange wire off battery charger 1 should be drawn coming off the aft bilge.  @YYZRC, this make any sense to you?

YYZRC

I have no explanation for how you have not got +12v at the charging breakers despite both batteries being on and presumably charged.  

Starting at each battery, you have +12v up until the charging breaker and then nothing?  And yet your forward bilge pump still works via float?

Grahamu

@rasbury, attached is the wiring diagram for a 2004 342, your boat should be similar. Hope it helps.

rasbury

@YYZRC I did not check the charge breakers, I was checking the bilge breakers... I will look at what you posted above tonight!

rasbury

@Grahamu thanks a lot, I'm sure that will be helpful !

rasbury

Thanks @YYZRC- i guess I need to learn some electrical symbols to figure the drawing out....I did mechanical drafting for a number of years but electrical...

Rich_

Take a look at your mid pump wiring. You might get lucky and find that they used the same wire colors at that pump as the aft pump. If so, probe with a volt meter to see what wire is what function at the mid and then check for the same function at the stern.

rasbury

@Rich_ but the floats operate independently don't they? I'm not sure what that would tell me....

rasbury

So, do these breakers go bad? If I pull the wires off it, I should have continuity correct? From there I will work with the drawing to chase wires.... @YYZRC and @Rich_...sound like a reasonable approach? On the float, should those two wires be hot all the time or do they energize when the float contacts close? Lots to learn how electric stuff works...

YYZRC

The way I interpret the wiring diagram (and I'm no EE), the bilge pump circuit power doesn't actually pass through the charging breaker so it should be irrelevant.

Make sure your battery switches are on.  Use your voltmeter and test for +12v at the battery switch (input and output).  If you have power, test for +12v at the charging breaker (input side).  If you have power there, test the diodes (input and output).  If you have power there, move to the bilge pump breaker (input and output).  If you have power there, and you don't have power at the bilge pump, there's a break in the wire somewhere or one of the connectors has come loose/failed.

rasbury

@YYZRC. Your an ee compared to what I know...
Battery switch- the boat operates other than this so power is going through the battery switch into the system...not sure what I'm checking on the battery switch..

Should I have continuity at the breaker post to test if it is working? I tested the back side of it for 12v and there was not but I don't know enough to understand. 

I have a couple projects going...lol