Smarty pants, I really could use your help! 350 Mag trouble SOLVED?? MAJOR UPDATE

Wildboating

No orange wire at alternator. 

Wildboating

@Alswagg. Do you have a trailer we can haul boat to your shop for diagnosis, repair, winter storage.  

Wildboating

@Alswagg

I went back looking at the specs on the motor i bought.  It clearly states for MPI engines that we must transfer over the CRANK POSITION TRIGGER WHEEL.   I am trying to find this part on a schematic and wondering did this happen.  Is my timing just flat off and this is why there is no power.  

Wildboating

I have not yet.   Could that cause a engine to sound restricted and to basically make NO power?

CaptianDan

The crank position trigger wheel attachs to the crank pullley. This is used in conjunction with the crank position sensor to tell the ecm timing and rpm.  Basically the wheels teeth form the electrical wave pattern and then resets cycle when the sensor goes over the missing tooth allowing the ecm to calculate.
It could be that wheel has not been aligned properly on the crank which would mean the timing would be off. If you are checking I would also test the sensor. 

Wildboating

I was inquiring if it could be off.  I am told no, otherwise engine would barely run.   

Wildboating

Today I verified plug firing order again, set top dead center on both engines and verified rotor position.  I also swapped crank sensor to verify proper readings.   Tomorrow I will reconnect the orange wire from the alternator.  

Wildboating

I refuse to give up, albeit Im getting rear beat by this issue.    

I cant get over how the starboard sounds restricted, not as free as the port side.  With the new HP bellows on the exhaust is louder and with more of a rumble.   The starboard still seems to have less rumble to it as the port.  I have looked down through the y pipe at the flappers  and into the outdrive for blockages.   Could there be something in the riser or manifold?  Do i need to look the other way?  Any special tools needed to pop them off?  Are the gaskets removable?  If i crack them open today can i put them back on or do i need $100 worth of gaskets to look?

Wildboating

@Alswagg  Any thoughts on above post?

Handymans342

Have you removed the valve covers while running?

reneechris14

Riser gasket is like 8 bucks and manifolds are cheep to, you did the bellows and nothing in the leg or transom assembly that's were it collects.

Black_Diamond

FYI on the orange wire. It is likely cut at both ends: alternator and at the starter. 

Check your alternator voltage output before you do it too. Some can be in the 15/16v range. 

Wildboating

@Black_Diamond
The wire is cut at both ends.  I tried getting at it but there is hardly nothing on the starter side and i have limited access to it.   I'm not sure how to get that done, doesn't seem doable with engine in place.

Wildboating

@reneechris14

I seen like 45 per side.  I must have looked at the wrong ones then.   The bellows have been replaced and the exhaust is clear.  

Wildboating

THE PLUGS ARE ORANGE, this is the only real tell tale info we have.   I have not been able to get any info on why, the port side plugs look perfect greyish / beige color.   The fuel gets replaced often.  I run the boat a lot, it runs perfect until about 60% throttle.  I ran last night at 30mph for 60 mi and she is happy to do it.  The starboard just will not go above this cut off.   I can increase the throttle and for approx. 1 second i may gain around 100+ rpm and then it immediately drops back to where it was.

Wildboating

Here is a comparison.  All 8 from starboard are orange.  All 8 from port are grey.   @212rowboat

Any thoughts drew?

Black_Diamond

Are you running any additives in the tank with the orange tinted plugs?  Is it more/different than the other tank?

Michael T

@Wildboating - from what my old eyes can see, the spark plug on the right looks normal - if it is a light tan color. The spark plug on the left looks a bit gray colored which could be a bit lean - not too much - but maybe a bit lean. I don't see any sort of glaring problem there, like, for example - black fluffy- would be too rich and black "wet" would be wet fuel problems. As for the difference on each side of the engine - fuel rail slightly off?

dalek

Perhaps a "Colortune" would shed some light on it?
 I am loath to suggest this, but perhaps you could connect the fuel rails from both engines together via the test ports? Obviously you would have to be very careful in your method.

212rowboat

there is nothing wrong with that plug... a 'rust' colored plug (like it's dusted, not like it's flaking) is demonstrative of a good a:f and proper timing- meaning it's close to 14.7:1... but here is the thing- it shouldn't be near 14.7:1 on a boat that lacks catalysts and o2 sensors.  you'd want to be below 14, more like 13.5~14:1 a:f... that makes it demonstrative of lacking fuel. 

i wager if you were to run a higher RPM under load on that engine/bank, you'd get tell-tale coloring of running lean.  

did you ever adjust lash on the valve train? how about get a look at the cam/crank timing?  if someone (the builder) adjusted your valve timing anywhere from dead matched, you could be seeing these issues.  you're fuel sync is based off of the crank position squirting every other TDC (or mills off either side of TDC)... you could be squirting late (look at the back of the valves on the lean(er) cylinders intake valves for evidence- they'll be discolored compared to the others, or straight up shiny)... that will tell you an injector is spraying the back side of the hot valve as it's closed or closing.  don't get me wrong, you want a touch of that to better atomize the fuel- but you'd want it to do it a split second prior to opening, not closing.  the cylinder then sucks the mixture in- sucking in the mixture while the injector is still spraying is bad fuel sync.  that fuel sync is driven by the crank position sensor reconciling off the cam position sensor and which is linked/controlled by the timing chain.

did you ever get a shop quality vacuum gauge on it?  monitoring vacuum at various loads/ranges would tell you about all you need to know- if it loses vacuum up top, the hydraulic lifters are over-charging and aren't seating- causing loss of power...

do this, too, just for good measure... pull the boots off the exhaust elbow and run a finger inside the inner pipe (not the outer, that's where the water is injected).. is it black and like charcoal? is it rust colored? is it oily?    

Wildboating

@Black_Diamond  Exact same fuel, same place, same time, all the time.

Wildboating

@212rowboat    I can do a video recording with a vacuum gauge again.   What would you like to see,  certiain rpms and hold, wide open, slow climb to wide open, Etc?

212rowboat

idle and just under WOT.  like, 200~300RPM under.  but it's more than just that. it's about the bounce. 

http://www.onallcylinders.com/2015/05/08/quick-tech-how-to-read-a-vacuum-gauge-to-pinpoint-engine-problems/

or

http://www.gregsengine.com/using-a-vacuum-gauge.html

and a toy

http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm

Wildboating

UPDATE!! 


@212rowboat
@Alswagg

I bought a back probe kit a couple days ago to do some voltage drop testing.  


Guess what......   Starboard engine high pressure pump is "loading" up.  Voltage drops from 13v to 9v-10v once pump energizes.   Who knows what is happening under increased load / electrical use.    Pump pressure is fine, this must be a volume issue.    Pump must be pulling crazy amps.  I tried to measure them but pump shuts off if I try to measure the amps for some reason.   

New pump and cooler in route.  Let's pray!!!   

Liberty44140

Fingers crossed!!!

Dream_Inn

Oh, that would be a great find!!  Sure be nice to get this one figured out before another winter!!!!

Wildboating

@212rowboat
Those are great articles.  Thanks for sharing.  

Black_Diamond

The voltage drop MAY be the result of that disconnected orange wire.  MAY.  The orange wire provides alternator voltage to the ECM and fuel pumps, with it cut you get battery voltage.  

Your results will be interesting. A video of how to replace that Gen 2 cool fuel / pump assy would be great. There is a big nothing out there on youtube or even other boating sites. 

Wildboating

I will write a write up later on how to remove the cool fuel, it was not fun but it isn't impossible.  My arms and hands are all cut up.  


So here is what I know.   I replaced the pump and discovered the voltage drop (8.5v) was back.   If I disconnected the hp pump voltage came back up at boost pump.  I thought the factory splice in the harness may have been bad so I redid it.  Voltage was still down.  Then I discovered the fuel pump fuse was burnt (center fuse in fuse block next to relays).  Here is the crazy part, the middle fuse was burnt but passing 12v to just boost pump or 8.5v to boost and hp pump.  I replaced the fuse and voltage returned to 12v with both pump connected.   So we now have 12v and brand new fuel pumps.  

I took the boat out for a test... this saga continues.   I gained about 300 rpm and can get around 3950 or so but she still stops making power on starboard motor at about 60 throttle.  Push all the way down or pull it back to about 60% it does not speed up or lose rpms in that zone. 

Liberty44140

Really sorry to see this. Have you decided whether or not you'll take the boat to Al this winter? At the very least why not store in the Sandusky/Catawba area where they have several very good mechanics?